stubborn denial vs negate/unified will???
Modern forum
Posted on Oct. 27, 2016, 12:37 a.m. by AlertKnave8075
So typically in Bant eldrazi, people tend to play like 3x Stubborn Denial or 2x denial and 1x Negate, or 3x Unified Will, so far im not too impressed with stubborn denial, its a good card by all means, but its double conditional doesnt really work super often for me, especially in any game where im against thoughtseize or such that gets rid of my big stuff rather quick...
I just want people's opinion if you are familiar with the bant eldrazi lists and meta, currently i am doing 2x denial and 1x negate, however i think i am gonna go to 1x denial and 2x negate.Thoughts on that are welcome!!
Many people tend to argue that denial is just better because we have 12x creatures that are big enough to activate ferocious, as well as it costing one less that negate, although i dont think that one mana difference in eldrazi seems to matter that much, generally if you have ferocious you also have enough mana to hold it up/do it the next turn.
Also some lists run unified will which isnt coniditional towards noncreature/creature and the likes.. It hits anything although the creature count worries me and im not sure how consistent thatll be or the likelihood that i will have more creatures than my opponent, because it could just become dead at a moments notice to any token generator or just creatre based decks like abzan, zoo, affinity.
Thanks for any comments
I would say that stubborn denial is a better version of negate if you plan on having sizable creatures always out. Early game you stop and delay combo's and such and once you have a 4/x out it's literally a 1 drop negate, which can free up an additional mana for your play. I don't like unified will because you're focused on key creatures, while things like RDW, Affinity, Abzan, Zoo, even some control decks can out race you on the creature pace. So if I were you I'd run either stubborn denials or negates, or some combo of the two mainboard/sideboard- Don't be fooled Stubborn denial is a crazy powerful card.
October 27, 2016 2:15 a.m.
AlertKnave8075 says... #4
GlistenerAgent - I think any list i have seen that plays with unified will does not split it at all, it either plays 3x or it plays 0, i dont think it pans out great if you split, since unified will hits so diversely, but Negate is definitely solid, dont want less than 1 for sure. I cant decide if i want 2x or 1x negate for an upcoming GP, but im still testing a bit, i think i might end up going to 2x negates because if i am bring in the counterspells, my match will probably be a little grindy anyway, and ill hold up a counterspell regardless of a 4/X creature out.
medownyou - yeah stubborn denial is great if its active and technically a cheaper negate, although when it is not, a force spike is usually sub-par. , especially against some of the top meta right now such as valakut/titanshift, eldrazi, tron. But thats just how it is. I think after all i wont try any of the unified will, at least not in my list, unless i dedicate more slots to Eldrazi Skyspawner But yes i think will isnt my favorite either, i like its versatility but overall harder to consistently hit with it. I think i might do either 2x negate and 1x denial, or vice versa, which is what i currently have.
October 27, 2016 3:12 a.m.
Yeah, that would be my suggestion try 2x negate 1x denial and if you find yourself a bit mana light swap out to 2x denial 1x negate.
October 27, 2016 3:30 a.m.
I don't play Bant Eldrazi, but Stubborn Denial seems pretty solid. It's cheap enough to Force Spike a critical card (or the aforementioned Thoughtseize), and if you don't achieve ferocious then you've probably lost anyway in the midgame. It's still conditional, though, hence the 3:1 split.
It's up to your preferences. I imagine that if you don't find situations where you'd rather have Stubborn Denial, you've made the right decision.
October 27, 2016 4:18 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
Well, you wouldn't want to do things differently from other people, that's for sure. Better stick to what the other lists are doing.
What would be wrong with playing 1-2 Wills? It's also a somewhat inconsistent card.
October 27, 2016 12:39 p.m.
AlertKnave8075 says... #8
DarkLaw - yes i agree that denial is very solid, no doubt about that. Just because i dont have ferocious doesnt mean im losing however, sometimes it could be a top deck way, which, eldrazi top decks very well most of the time, but denial in a lot of situations IS just a force spike, and if i do happen to have a 4/x then great, its a negate haha.
GlistenerAgent - i dont mind doing things differently from other people, but obviously the pros know what they are doing as they are top 8'ing Gps, opens and the like with these kinds of split. I dont think anything is wrong with wills itself, its a good card, im just semi worried about the double conditional, although i am also worried about being able to counter creatures. For example against almost any creature based deck, they will have more creatures than me at a given time from midgame and prior. Affinity, zoo, any token theme, puts me behind in creatures for the most part and then unified will because dead. I dont mind trying the wills for sure!, although i am uncertain of it. Unless, like i mentioned i play with Eldrazi Skyspawner instead of Matter Reshaper or have a split somewhere, so that i can get more creatures early.
But also i will probably end up going 1 denial, 2 negate.. You are all welcome to look at my deck on my deck lists...i dont know how to link it so sorry about that. But i have done fairly well with it, have yet to go to a big tournament (first will be this GP), although i consistently go 3-1 or 4-0 at my local shop 2x a week, and the competition there is quite good if i must say.
October 27, 2016 1:31 p.m.
AlertKnave8075 says... #9
medownyou - yes i appreciate your suggestion! i definitely will try something close to it.
I guess when it comes down to it, it really is about preference and also the meta, which also leaves me unsure ha.
October 27, 2016 1:33 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #10
Why would you be sideboarding in your counterspells against a creature-heavy deck anyway? Hitting CoCo is OK, but rather marginal. You will have more creatures in play than Burn, or you aren't going to win anyway.
October 27, 2016 1:34 p.m.
AlertKnave8075 says... #11
well for suicide zoo for example, i need to bring in counterspells to hit their combo pieces because the deck doesnt have the most killspells and it is easy to remove drowner / reality smasher against suicide zoo
October 27, 2016 2:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
Seems like your Engineered Explosives do enough for that matchup. Also, if you have fewer creatures than them there is a good chance you are either losing anyway or styming their two small creatures with your TKS and don't really need the counterspell. I think your counterspells are most useful against control and random combo decks, where Unified Will is very, very good.
October 27, 2016 2:25 p.m.
AlertKnave8075 says... #13
although EE is very good against them, it still requires usually 2 turns of spending my mana, so sometimes it can be slow in the early game, where i would rather be developing a creature or leaving that 1 mana to counter a become immense or something. It is argueable though that the EE with my small creatures should be able to do the trick against those decks, but since they consistently can kill you on 3-4, cards like drowner of hope and reality smasher and not as useful as they dont realy bring any stability to the game. Drowner of hope can be useful but i think the 4x copies of still isnt that best since i will have to use resources early to stay alive instead of getting mana up to drowner. Reality smasher is a suggested thing to just remove all of them, by the time i stablize against those decks i should win anyway, and the counterspells + EE help a ton. Even if i have a creature out to trade with and dont draw EE for example, they can still combo over with enough damage to kill me which is why adding another card that disrupts their combo is important.. But that is just one match up. Unified will probably is decent against suicide zoo occasionally, but without their pumps, the creatures arent the best.
GlistenerAgent says... #2
I agree that Stubborn Denial isn't great. I would favor 2 Negate and 1 Unified Will, having access to Will is nice but the consistency of Negate is very good.
October 27, 2016 2:07 a.m.