New Deck Statistics?
General forum
Posted on June 29, 2010, 4:47 p.m. by yeaGO
Hey all,
This is your wish-list thread for telling me what kind of statistics you wish TappedOut had, but doesn't.
DeckBuilder345 says... #3
A more concrete suggestion that we had talked a little about earlier. The 2 or 3 primary colors of the intended play deck for each drafter after they have drafted in the draft simulator.
And a way to perhaps rate other peoples decks after the draft is over by the drafters?
June 29, 2010 5:41 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #4
I agree with DeckBuilder345's suggestion about card cast probability based on mana cost, mana producer ratio, and card draw.
Here's another idea that I think would be cool. Every time a user picks a card in the draft simulator, keep track of when it was picked. Then, each card could have an average pick number. Cards that are usually picked first would be close to 1 and cards that are picked last would be close to 14. Put this number on each card's card page. That way people that are new to drafting can see what types of cards are good in limited and which cards are not. I figure since we have real people drafting in the simulator, it's a good opportunity to create data based on real people's picks.
June 29, 2010 8:45 p.m.
re: pick number: I am generating such an index currently =)
creature mana curve... one thing I did was split up the mana curve further into colors. go check a new deck out and let me know if that suffices. (yours will be updated soon)
June 29, 2010 9:10 p.m.
I like the split of the Mana curve, but on my deck, deck:standard-green-stompy, the red in my four slot is showing up as white.
June 29, 2010 10:30 p.m.
Aha, that explains the 'french vanilla' look. I figured that gold cards would be broken down by color, much as they are in the mana pie chart above.
June 29, 2010 10:33 p.m.
Can't do it on that chart cause the height needs to be the same.
Was thining about mixes of colors.. but..ahhh 3 colors will all just look brown.
June 29, 2010 10:42 p.m.
SocialistElite says... #11
The only proble I see about the draft picks thing is that if someone drafts by themselves or in a small group (which happens quite often) the results for pick order would be drastically different than if you were drafting in a larger group. Maybe split the results into two groups? One for drafts of 4 and under, and the other for drafts 5 and up?
I like the way you're splitting up the curve into colors, even though I can't really appreciate it on account of my colorblindness, but yeah. Good job. Its really nifty.
June 29, 2010 11:06 p.m.
luckyfirefox16 says... #12
@ yeago! - You're the man! Lovin the new color breakdown in the curve graphs.
June 30, 2010 12:57 p.m.
HammerAndSickled says... #13
Not sure if it's even feasible with the current card info, but a "percentage of lands that Come into Play tapped" would be helpful. Sometimes I get the mana curve and color wheel just right but then I realize all my lands come into play tapped and that slows you down immensely :P
June 30, 2010 5:39 p.m.
HammerAndSickled says... #15
that would work. or even a crosshatch, outline, whatever works. My concern was that while all the lands have the color they produce in the rules text, some lands (I'm thinking hideaway) have the tapped part hidden in reminder text. there's also the difference between "comes into play tapped" and the newer "enters the battlefield tapped". Unless you're using the rules text direct from oracle?
June 30, 2010 6:52 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #16
yeaGO!, if you want to make a new field in the card info for lands in order to designate if they enter the battlefield tapped or not, I can input that data tonight (will probably take me less than hour to do so).
June 30, 2010 7 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #18
Should cards like Ancient Amphitheater and Blood Crypt be marked as tapped or no?
July 1, 2010 1:13 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #19
Data entry complete. For now, I left the Ancient Amphitheater cycle, the Blood Crypt cycle, and the Dragonskull Summit cycle as untapped, since they all can potentially enter the battlefield untapped.
July 1, 2010 2:22 a.m.
HammerAndSickled says... #21
That sounds mighty fine to me. If you're building the deck right, using those lands they very often do come into play untapped, so it's representative of the actual play, which is what we're going for. Sounds great! you guys are awesome
July 1, 2010 9:05 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #22
@ yeaGO! any chance you can set it up so people can sign up for a draft to be held at some date in the future? For instance July 8 2010. Rather than have to count the min between now and then, and confuse people on the front page with a draft that hangs around forever? Maybe a spot for regularly scheduled drafts to appear?
July 2, 2010 7:11 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #23
Another suggestion i had.
In the type breakdown pie chart, what about having all the instants, sorcerires, and enchants placed next to each other, and a superset consisting of those abilities called other spells? or something like that... ie to indicate they are non creature.
I am envisioning 3 large categories in the pie chart one of which is broken down into smaller categories. (creatures)(other spells)(land) W/ sub categories in other spells being instant, sorcery and enchant. This way you can get a broad break down and then a more detailed one?
Or even if sorcery and enchant and instant are all next to each other and not separated by any other categories like land / creatures that would help i think to better assess the quantity of non creature spells.
July 2, 2010 7:18 p.m.
@DB345: Ok, I think I can tidy up the breakdown chart and make all spells a different color (orange perhaps). They'd have to be different shades still but I can make sure they appear next to one another.
July 2, 2010 9:07 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #25
Next suggestion. Allow the generation of a random "pack" with out actually having to do a draft.
This would be for say a challenge, or something where you generate 6 and everyone gets to use those cards and only those cards along w/ some basic lands of course. Or just practice assembling decks with a given card list. I figure it can't be too hard since the sight actually already does this for the draft any way.
July 7, 2010 6:30 p.m.
I made some changes due to this thread:
-I put tap lands into a new slice on the land chart.
-I added artifacts to the color wheel for decks
July 19, 2010 6:33 p.m.
I dont like the artifacts on the wheel As it only makes the ratio between colours harder to work out seen as artifacts have no effect on this i don't think they should be one the wheel.
However they should remain on the CMC chart as thats quite useful.
July 20, 2010 10 a.m.
Ok, cool. I will maybe let the user decide.
Sometimes its useful, like if its a mono deck.
July 20, 2010 12:09 p.m.
What if I kept the artifact in the icon, but I ditched it in the color wheel?
July 20, 2010 1:26 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #30
I agree with SirNips. Take a look at this deck that he made: Evoking Emrakul. The mana symbols chart makes it look like the deck is mostly colorless, but in reality, it only has six colorless cards. Since they have such high casting costs, it skews the chart. Maybe colorless spells should be equal to one colored mana symbol no matter what the converted mana cost is?
Next, the land mana chart doesn't accurately convey the proportion that enters the battlefield tapped (slow). Looking at this same deck, it makes it seem like 20% of the land is slow. However, only the Raging Ravine s are slow (8.3%). Since Raging Ravine produces two colors of mana, it is being counted twice on the chart. Since the majority of lands that are slow produce more than one color, perhaps they should no longer be recounted for each color they produce. Ideally, one Raging Ravine should be counted as 0.5 red mana and 0.5 green mana, instead of 1.0 red mana and 1.0 green mana.
One last thing, while I'm looking at the charts. The type breakdown chart often cuts the number off of the enchantment label due to restrictions in space. To resolve this, perhaps the enchantment label can always be placed on top of the chart, pointing down, and the rest of the labels can be placed in relation to the enchantment label (depending on the size of their corresponding pie slices).
July 21, 2010 11:20 a.m.
cool. if your chart has gray in it, just re-save it and it should go away.
July 21, 2010 2:06 p.m.
I renamed it to 'Enchants'. I couldn't figure out a sure-fire way to make the chart software generate keep it at the top.
July 21, 2010 2:22 p.m.
rockleemyhero says... #33
I like the idea that deckbuilder and mistergreen threw out early on...like a statistic of the chances of you drawing a one drop in your opening hand, a 2 drop by turn 2, 3 drop by turn 3, etc. That sounds a little more complicated than what I'd like haha. Basically here's an example of what I'm asking for using my mythic-conscription-variation: (making up some numbers so bare with me)
I have a 42% chance of getting Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch in my opening hand. I have a 30% chance of getting a Sovereigns of Lost Alara in my hand by turn 4.
I hope this isn't too much to ask for! Maybe someone else can communicate what I said in a more clarified, simplistic way.
July 21, 2010 3:38 p.m.
How many turns is this drop-statistic useful for?
can it not be adequately derived using the mana curve chart?
July 21, 2010 5:08 p.m.
Sounds like things that you can calculate on your own... like 4 noble hierarch and 4 birds (8/60)(100) = 13.3% so they take up 13% of your deck... and then you have 7 draws at the start. ... errr.. nevermind I actually don't want to write out all the math on here, but it isn't that hard hahaha. I think mana curve chart is the best for that, as yeaGO! says...
July 21, 2010 9:31 p.m.
I don't mind accomodating. I just need to narrow it down to something specific. =)
July 22, 2010 1:12 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #38
The original idea involved not only draw probability, but play probability as well. For example, let's say I want to know the probability of being able to play Blightning on turn three when I go first. This means a total of 9 cards will go to my hand. Of these 9 cards, I need 1 to be Blightning , 1 to be a land that produces red mana, 1 to be a land that produces black mana, and 1 to be a land that produces any color of mana. Plus, that 9th card that I draw on turn 3 can't be a land that enters the battlefield tapped if I didn't already have three lands.
This would be cool to know, but there are probably just too many variables to consider. For example, having creatures that produce mana, card draw, being milled by your opponent, forced discard, tutoring, etc. will all change the probability of being able to play that Blightning on turn three. It might just be too much work to create something that doesn't quite reflect reality.
As for just draw probability, that seems plausible. Perhaps the first 10 turns?
July 22, 2010 10:45 a.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #39
@ yeaGO! thank you for grouping the spell portion together as a chunk apart from the creature and land portions. That really helps to get a visual representation of the deck. Would it be possible to sum up all those numbers (for the enchant/sorcerry/instant) as part of a super bracket ? So a line coming off each of those as they still are but a bracket encompassing all of the above with a line coming off the bracket perhaps summing up the total % of those cards that your deck contains? Just curios? I mean obviously we can all do some simple addition but it would be nice to just be able to glance at it.
July 22, 2010 12:38 p.m.
HammerAndSickled says... #40
I was also wondering if it's possible to maybe have a transparent color section on the mana curve chart indicating additional costs like kicker. For example, in this deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/raw-burn/ I could have an extra 6 cards "floating" at 5 mana in a transparent red color, to show the fact that I can kick Burst Lightning and Unstable Footing at that point in the curve as well.
July 22, 2010 10:59 p.m.
hrm, I do dig that Hammer. Can someone else weigh in on the above comment?
July 23, 2010 1:42 a.m.
Just put it in a separate curve... I don't want my current one muddled too much.
July 23, 2010 2:21 a.m.
luckyfirefox16 says... #43
I agree with momo- the addition of that on a regular curve could get kind of confusing. I feel like you could do a double bar graph for the kicker though, like put both bars right next to eachother and have one be kicker and the other be normal cast. Only glaring question I have is what happens when you have a multikicker card...
July 23, 2010 10:55 a.m.
HammerAndSickled says... #44
Yeah I agree that it makes the curve harder to see. Double-bar graph is a good idea, and multikicker is a tough challenge as well. Multikicker could perhaps be indicated at each point in the curve it could be kicked? to a limit, of course. Like, a Joraga Warcaller would be counted at 1, then the kicker at 3, 5, 7, and perhaps 9.
July 23, 2010 11:52 a.m.
zerotimestatechamp says... #45
Many players have taken and posted quizzes regarding what kind of player they are. I think it would be cool if on each persons page existed normal deck statistics but for the culmination of their decks. A pie chart of how often they use each color, another for the ratio of instants/sorceries/creatures/artifacts/lands/plainswalkers.
This interests me greatly.July 24, 2010 4:19 p.m.
I am digging the above. (zerotime)
I am happy to do the curve thing but I don't really want to add a separate chart. I could have an option to cost things at their kicker cost? Then you'd all have to beg mistergreen to fill in those costs. =)
July 24, 2010 6:40 p.m.
merubhanot says... #47
Here's an idea:
Let's make it so fetch lands show up in the mana base pie chart somehow? Any ideas on how to implement this? I'm thinking they should be in the pie chart as alternating stripes of the colors, and should count towards the percentages of both, because that's how I think of them when I build decks. Any thoughts?
July 25, 2010 4:53 a.m.
Just been noticing recently that the artifact lands have joined the artifact section, is it possible to get them put in under the land section again.
July 25, 2010 7:55 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #50
Haha, no begging needed. Just let me know if the plan is to go through with this and I'll insert all of the kicker costs (I can also do buyback, entwine, evoke, flashback, madness, replicate, splice, suspend, unearth, and any other alternate costs that people want me to do).
DeckBuilder345 says... #2
Ok i am just tossing ideas out there.
How about a chart or maybe bar graph of creature power? Some times it is good to be able to see at a glance oh shoot i have way too many 2/2 dudes and not enough 3/3 dudes... but plenty of 4/4 dudes. I guess this would be a creature curve? in addition to a mana curve?
Or maybe a creature mana curve? so you can see where you should be filling in creatures. seperate and apart from the decks mana curve?
Maybe ratios of lands : creatures: instants: Sorceries: enchants? with perhaps (instants, sorceries, and enchants) all grouped together, as a spell category, and then further split out into each of the sub categories. This way you can get a feel for the overall card type of balance in your deck?
or what about a way to designate substitution cards from your side board?
Maybe some analysis about how likely it is you would be able to play a certain card on a given turn, based on your mana base vs the ratio of other cards in your deck coupled with the cards given casting cost? (for instance if you are playing a black and red deck and have a (1)RR card and 17 red mana and 10 black mana how likely is it you would be able to play said card on turn 3? turn 4? 5? etc)
June 29, 2010 5:36 p.m.