the stack vs. state based actions
Asked by boring_adam 4 years ago
Hello, I am not sure if I fully understand how the stack works vs state based actions. So please correct me, if I do a mistake in the following example: I have three creatures on the battlefield. My opponent has Butcher of Malakir + Patron of the Vein and a third 3/2 vampire out, each of them with one +1/+1 counter on them. On my hand I have two lightning bolts, a Grapeshot and a Blazing Volley and the mana to play all of them. So how can I get rid of all the vampires without losing all of my creatures or what is my best play? Meaning: In which order and timing do I cast my spells and which targets do I choose.
I see two possible casting timings: 1: I play my Volley first and before it resolves the bolts on the the Butcher and the Patron. If my opponent does nothing to respond, while still everything is on the stack, I play my Grapeshot, getting three copies. I target the Butcher and the Patron with 1 damage each and the third vamp with 2. Now things resolve: Each vampire gets its damage from Grapeshot. Then the 3 damage from the bolts go to the Butcher and the Patron. Now all vampires are down to toughness 1 and the Volley resolves, where it gets crucial. It deals all of its damage at once (or can I define an order?). As a steady state action, all vampires die. As a result of the butcher's ability I have to sacrifice creatures. Depending of the order of things, is there a way I only sacrifice one? I suppose not and I have to sac three. Ether way, when the sacrifice resolves the Patron will no longer be on the battlefield to trigger any +1/+1 counters.
2, The same targets, different timings: I play the bolts and the Volley. I let those resolve (it doesn't matter if separately or on the stack together). Now I play Grapeshot, again getting 3 copies. This time each copy's damage can resolve separately, triggering abilities. I would target the vanilla vamp with the original and the first copy, then the Butcher and then the Patron with the last copy. So the patron dies first, triggering the butcher and I sacrifice one. The Patron is no longer on the field, so no +1/+1 counters there. The butcher gets its damage next, I sacrifice again. The last damages resolve and the last vampire dies. I have lost two creatures. Is my understanding of the scenarios right?
Pls all comment on the post, too, if you have further comments, as it is my first post here. Thanks Adam Regards Adam
Gidgetimer says... #2
Grapeshot is a sorcery, so unless you can give it flash the second scenario is how you have to do it. Even if you can give it flash, the second scenario would be preferable to the first. Depending on if you value your second weakest creature more or killing the 3/2 (5/4 after the two counters) you could also kill the Butcher first. Your understanding of the stack seems to be spot on, although calling SBAs "steady state actions" seems a little odd. Blazing Volley 's damage is not ordered and you will get 3 butcher triggers in scenario 1.
October 21, 2019 8:07 p.m.
boring_adam says... #3
Ok, thanks a lot! I really wrote steady state instead state based, strange thing
October 22, 2019 12:19 a.m.
boring_adam says... #4
Ok, thanks a lot! I really wrote steady state instead state based, strange thing
October 22, 2019 12:20 a.m.
boring_adam says... #5
To Gidgetimer: Why is it important that Grapeshot is a sorcery, in that case? So you say I can't play scenario 1?
October 22, 2019 12:28 a.m.
It's important that Grapeshot is a sorcery because you can only cast a sorcery on your turn during one of your main phases when the stack is empty. In your first scenario, you said you'd cast it while the other damage spells were still on the stack in order for the Grapeshot damage to fire first, which you can't do unless you give it flash.
October 22, 2019 12:44 a.m.
boring_adam says... #7
Ah, I knew when I can cast sorceries but I didn't know the stack needs to be empty! Thanks for the clarification...
October 22, 2019 2:08 a.m.
In the future, please remember to hit the green "Mark as Answer" button on a post to indicate your question has been resolved. Since you have indicated your question and your follow-up has been answered, I have gone ahead and marked an answer on your behalf.
October 22, 2019 10:30 a.m.
boring_adam says... #9
Sure, Thanks. I will remember it the next time...
Kogarashi says... Accepted answer #1
Ok, in your first scenario, you've got the timing correct. However there isn't really a situation where you would get to define the order of damage and thus minimize your sacrifices. The reason is because Blazing Volley will do its damage all at once. Then, when a player would next receive priority, state-based actions are checked and see all three vampires have lethal damage marked on them, and thus they would be sent to the graveyard, triggering Butcher of Malakir three times. Three Butcher triggers go on the stack and will resolve independent of their source, and thus you would sacrifice three things. You're correct that the Patron of the Vein will be in the graveyard by the time you sacrifice and thus the exile/counters ability won't trigger.
With your second scenario, you do have it ordered in the ideal way to enable the damage to kill all three vampires, but it does mean you'll have two sacrifice triggers to deal with. If you change it to kill the Butcher first, you'll only have to sacrifice one creature, but the Patron will make itself and the third vampire big enough to survive the rest of the damage.
I can't see a way to minimize things to one sacrifice without introducing more damage into the equation to overkill the Patron and third vampire.
October 21, 2019 8:01 p.m.