Some Infinite Combos May Not Be Win Conditions
Asked by NoSoyYucateco 10 years ago
I received an interesting comment on a deck of mine that completely changed my understanding of many popular infinite combos like Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond and Guilty Conscience + Stuffy Doll .
Here's what the rules have to say:
"104.4b If a game that's not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don't result in a draw."
Does that mean people are mistakenly thinking these combos are win conditions when they are in fact not? It seems to me that it does.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
Rules questions should be asked in the Q&A. I can't convert this to a Q&A thread, so I'm moving it to BE.
No. Remember that, barring extenuating circumstances, your opponents will still die after some number of iterations of the loop. Therefore, the loop is not usually infinite. The game ends when one player loses, and the loop ends with the game.
104.4b applies in situations where a repeating loop of actions does not cause anyone to lose the game. For example, the only permanent on the battlefield is an Oblivion Ring that has exiled another Oblivion Ring . A third Oblivion Ring is played, and it exiles the existing Oblivion Ring , returning the other exiled Oblivion Ring . The Oblivion Ring s continue to exile one another because there are no other legal targets. The game is a draw unless a player intervenes and breaks the loop.
Note also that players are not required to take an extra action in order to break a mandatory loop, even if they could take such an action. For example, no player is forced to cast Naturalize to end the Oblivion Ring loop. However, if a loop of actions involves a player choice and there is a choice that would result in the loop not continuing, the player will eventually be forced to make that choice. You cannot draw a game by infinitely repeating nonmandatory actions.
August 25, 2014 9:10 a.m.
The "way to stop" would be winning, as you would automatically do so when the effects started looping.
The second example would, I believe, cause illegal targeting after the Stuffy Doll 's initial target lost.
August 25, 2014 9:12 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
The Worldgorger Dragon + Animate Dead combo is an infinite loop of mandatory actions, which in itself would cause a draw, but decks with that combo have other ways to win the game, using the combo as an infinte draw/mana engine alongside Bazaar of Baghdad in Vintage. The combo ends when the game ends, i.e. all other players lose the game.
Also, bro I heard you like Oblivion Ring s, so I put an Oblivion Ring on your Oblivion Ring on your Oblivion Ring so you can Oblivion Ring while you Oblivion Ring your Oblivion Ring .
August 25, 2014 12:32 p.m.
NoSoyYucateco says... #5
Okay, so the way I'm understanding it then, priority is passed between triggers in these combos.
Thanks for clarifying! I got this comment and thought, huh, well if this is true, so much of my life has been a lie.
August 25, 2014 5:05 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Priority always has to be passed before an object on the stack resolves. Triggered abilities (and spells and activated abilities) don't just resolve immediately.
hyperlocke says... #1
The combos you mentioned end when there are no more opponents to target (Sanguine Bond ) or when Stuffy Doll 's target opponent is dead. They don't cause the game to end in a draw.
A combo that causes a draw would be 3 Oblivion Ring s without other nonland permanents on the field. This results in a loop that can't be ended.
August 25, 2014 9:09 a.m.