Persist with tokens
Asked by GoldGhost012 11 years ago
If I have a 1/1 Human token and I give it persist with Cauldron of Souls then it dies, would it come back as a 0/0 and die again, or would it be exiled as soon as it hits the graveyard?
110.5f A token thats phased out, or thats in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
110.5g A token that has left the battlefield cant move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
704. State-Based Actions
704.1. State-based actions are game actions that happen automatically whenever certain conditions (listed below) are met. State-based actions dont use the stack.
704.1a Abilities that watch for a specified game state are triggered abilities, not state-based actions. (See rule 603, Handling Triggered Abilities.)
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.
May 29, 2013 2:43 p.m.
so if you have a ton of creatures with undying and the cauldron of souls, then they would just recur forever? it comes back with a -1 and a +1 and they cancel each other, so you could feed a sac engine to get some awesome effect?
May 29, 2013 3:42 p.m.
wait nevermind, it comes back as a totally new thing and loses the undying. i'm dumb.
May 29, 2013 3:43 p.m.
704. State-Based Actions
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
@abdulbaqr The answer to your question is yes, and no you're not dumb. Refer to this post for your ideal made real http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/murderous-redcapfalkenrath-torturer-mikaeus-the-unhallowed-infinite-damage/
May 29, 2013 3:57 p.m.
Another one would be to use Kitchen Finks instead of Murderous Redcap for "infinite" life.
May 29, 2013 4:03 p.m.
@psychoza What I had in my head was that you use the Cauldron of Souls
on say, a Young Wolf
. You use a sac outlet to kill the wolf to get....something, mana, life, damage, whatever. Undying triggers, bringing it back with a +1/+1, the Persist gives it a -1/-1, so it gets no net difference meaning that undying can trigger again. But, this new wolf is not affect by the cauldron because it is a totally new creature and lost the persist when it died.
Now, i totally see your example where you have static abilities of both. And for that reason, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
is ridiculous.
May 29, 2013 4:15 p.m.
Undying and Persist will never occur simultaneously. They'll both trigger, and you'll be required to stack them in such a way that either Undying or Persist will occur first, and the other will fail as that card is no longer in the expected zone (the graveyard). So for the purpose of demonstration, we'll pick Undying first. Then it'll return to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter. Then sacrifice it again, Undying won't trigger because it had a +1/+1 counter on it, but Persist will. It will return the card to the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it (but no +1/+1 counter, because it's a new object). Then sacrifice it again, and Undying will trigger but Persist won't. Repeat ad nauseam. Cauldron of Souls won't do it for you, unless you combo it with something else, like Dross Scorpion and an artifact creature.
Absinthman says... Accepted answer #1
It would not. Tokens that are placed anywhere else besides the battlefield cease to exist when state-based actions are checked. That is before any player receives priority. Persis trigger will go onto the stack, then state-based actions are checked, the token ceases to exist and then persist resolves having nothing to bring back from your graveyard.
May 29, 2013 2:20 p.m.