Mikaeus + Skinrender + Blasting Station Combo (Legit?)
Asked by DaddyRabbit78 8 years ago
Commander game. My friend uses this three-card infinite combo. I can't stand it, but the way it was explained to me is totally legitimate. However, a third player is not convinced and even wants this to go before a tournament judge for an "official" ruling. Figured I'd ask here first:
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is already out as well as Blasting Station. Skinrender is cast.
What my friend does is put the 3 -1/-1 counters from Skinrender onto itself and because Mikaeus, the Unhallowed gives him +1/+1 and Undying, that should have Skinrender at a net 1/1, with no +1/+1 counters, right? (the +1/+1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed gives is not a counter, but a bonus).
Blasting Station is tapped, Skinrender is sacrificed, and 1 damage dealt to the other player.
Because of Undying, Skinrender comes back to the battlefield at 3/3. Since he is a creature entering the battlefield, Blasting Station untaps, Undying gives him a +1/+1 counter, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed gives him +1/+1, he uses Skinrender himself to apply three more -1/-1 counters (removing the lone +1/+1 counter), thus giving him a net 2/2. Blasting Station sacs him again and the process starts over infinitely until the other player is dead.
HOWEVER, the third player argues that the negative counters remain on the creature indefinitely, so his consistent toughness of 0 should keep him in the graveyard forever (because thanks to some tough losses via Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, we've learned that technically negative counters can't be removed), he doesn't ever gain the +1/+1 from Undying nor the +1/+1 from Mikaeus, the Unhallowed because he never legally re-entered the battlefield.
We're arguing that because of what we understand of SBA, his toughness is a net total of all counters, meaning even if he comes back at 0/0 because of the negative counters, he still gets the +1/+1 from Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and the +1/+1 from Undying, thus putting him back at a net Strength and Toughness of 2/2 so the combo can now go infinite.
This is literally going before a judge tomorrow afternoon. I think this third friend is about to get humiliated.
Accurate?
PS, now that we've brought Rule 121.2 to his attention, he is now arguing that Undying should have never triggered to begin with because the creature had a +1/+1 counter on it then hit with enough negative counters to render it's Toughness to 0, thus the counter stays and Undying doesn't trigger ("Last State" and all). Which would be true but for the fact that it was Blasting Station that sacrificed it with 1/1 rather than rendering it Toughness-less.
I'm sure I've answered my own question(s) in this short novel, but he needs to see your responses for himself, if we are indeed correct here. My friend really hates to make the 20 mile drive to an official judge for something that appears to be in black and white.
Thanks!!!
Skinrender is first time 4/4 thanks to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. When it's sacrificed for Blasting Station, undying triggers and gets him back as a 5/5(4/4 with counter). Skinrender entering battlefield causes two abilities to trigger. It's own and Blasting Station's. controller of the triggers may put them stack in any order they wish. Regardless of order they choose Skinrender as target for it's own etb. As SBA's are checked after that +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counter remove each other leaving it as 2/2(4/4 with two counters). Combo is perfectly legit.
March 27, 2016 6:02 p.m.
I think you're confusing Poison counters from Skithiryx with the -1/-1 counters Skinrender is putting on itself.
There's no such thing as "negative counters." The poison counters given to you by Skithiryx don't ever go away because they are on you, the player, and so far there are no cards that remove counters from players. Counters on permanents, on the other hand, cease to exist every time that permanent changes zones (except for Skullbriar, the Walking Grave).
The short answer is that this combo works fine.
Every time Skinrender goes into the graveyard all counters on it cease to exist.
If there were no +1/+1 counters on it when it died, it will un-die back to the battlefield.
Every time it comes back as a base power/toughness 3/3 that is getting +1/+1 from a static effect and has one +1/+1 counter, making it a 5/5.
Then its ability triggers and subsequently resolves, giving it three -1/-1 counters, making it a 2/2.
State-based actions are checked; the +1/+1 counter and one -1/-1 counter are removed.
You activate Blasting Station, sac'ing Skinrender,which starts the process over again.
Rule 121.2 isn't relevant in this case because Skinrender isn't giving itself enough counters to die outright. If Skinrender were giving itself five or more counters (lets say because you had a Doubling Season out, for whatever reason...), then it would die as part of the state-based action check, and still have one +1/+1 counter and a bunch of -1/-1 counters on it, and wouldn't trigger undying.
Clear enough?
March 27, 2016 6:12 p.m.
Actually there is one card which removes poison counters: Leeches.
March 27, 2016 6:17 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
Just going to add a fourth post confirming what the other 3 have said.
When an object changes zones all counters on it cease to exist (121.2). The first time Skinrender is sacrificed it is rather obvious that he has no +1/+1 counters and undying will trigger. When Skinrender re-enters it enters with a +1/+1 counter on it. Skinrender's etb triggers and if he is the target of his own ability he will get three -1/-1 counters. One of each counter will be removed (704.5r). The next time the Skinrender is sacrificed it will have no +1/+1 counters on it and undying will trigger again.
Your opponent with the infinite combe is correct. As a side note on how to deal with this the best bet you are going to have is to use targeted removal to interrupt the combo at instant speed. There are many places where a well placed exile from graveyard, or kill spell will interrupt this combo.
March 28, 2016 2:01 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
I once had an opponent resolve Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion combo while sitting there all smug and confident. He asked if anyone had responses before he pinged us all to death.
In response to the last counter being removed in order to kill Triskelion, I flashed in Fool's Demise on it, essentially stealing his Triskelion as he sat there dumbstruck as his combo fell to shambles.
Raging_Squiggle says... Accepted answer #1
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed gives Skinrender a static +1/+1 and Undying.
When Skinrender enters the battlefield, it will be a 4/4.
When the 3 -1/-1 counters are placed on it, it will become a 1/1.
You can sac it to Blasting Station to deal 1 damage. Undying triggers.
Skinrender returns to play via undying with a +1/+1 counter on it, making it now a 5/5. The 3 -1/-1 counters are placed on it again making it a 2/2. Blasting Station is now untapped.
Sac the creature again to Blasting Station, pinging something for 1.Undying triggers because there is no +1/+1 counter on it.
Skinrender returns to play as a 5/5. Then gets the 3 -1/-1 counters, making it a 2/2.
Rinse and repeat for GG.
Note that if Skinrender came back via undying, and when it had the 3 -1/-1 counters placed on it, it's toughness reached 0, it would immediately die as a state based action.
when it dies this way, information is checked for any triggers. Another SBA that is checked is if a permanent has both a positive and negative 1/1 counter (which negate each other).
the game will see that when it died via SBA, it also had both a positive and negative counter on it, thus not triggering undying.
March 27, 2016 6 p.m.