kozilek, the great Question?
Asked by Sain_Cheese 9 years ago
Kozilek, the Great Distortion has had a lot of debate on his first ability. "When you cast... draw into seven" and according to the rules, this resolves no matter if Cozy was countered.
However, something I couldn't find, no matter how much I looked, was more details about his third ability.
So here is my question, if I cast Cozy and "he" were to be countered by a Void Shatter but in my draw to seven I managed to find a Matter Reshaper, could I then counter the Void Shatter by using Cozy's third ability and discarding Matter Reshaper while everything is still on the stack.
Does my draw into seven happen before the Void Shatter resolves? I assume yes on this because it's "when you cast" so if that is specific isn't countered it should resolve first?
Or
So in a slightly different scenario, can I use Kozilek, the Great Distortion's third ability, "discard a card with the converted mana cost of X: Counter target spell with converted mana cost X." While Kozilek is still on the stack, assuming I already had the card in my hand to discard to counter a spell.
My instinct says yes, but I couldn't find a confirmation. Thanks for the help in adavce!
Sain_Cheese says... #2
Is there specific ruling on this? Because technically kozilek has been cast (which is why I would draw into seven) and his abilities are available until the stack resolves or so I would think. I need proof, thanks again.
May 10, 2016 12:06 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #3
Oh and because that third ability can be used at instant speed.. another reason I would think why.
May 10, 2016 12:07 p.m.
Cozy has yet to resolve as a creature on the battlefield, so no.
May 10, 2016 12:12 p.m.
spacecoyote1313 says... #5
I dont have the specific ruling. The reason you draw 7 is because you cast him and that is his triggered ability. His counter is an activated ability and you cant activate it while he is on the stack. Actually has to be in play for you to activate it.
May 10, 2016 12:13 p.m.
Kozileks triggered ability checks to see if you have fewer than seven cards in hand when you cast it. Kozilek is on the stack at this time and not in your hand. If you dont, the ability wont trigger at all. If the ability does trigger, it will check again as it tries to resolve. If you have seven or more cards in hand at that time, the ability wont do anything. To activate the last ability, there must be a legal target: a spell on the stack. That target will determine the value of X and the converted mana cost of the card you discard. You cant activate the ability unless you can match the converted mana cost of a spell on the stack to that of a card in your hand.The converted mana cost of a spell doesnt change, even if its been cast using an alternative cost (such as an awaken cost). For example, the converted mana cost of a Sheer Drop (a spell with mana cost 2W) thats been cast for its awaken cost of 5W is 3.If theres an X in the mana cost of the card you discard, that X is 0. Any X in the mana cost of the target spell will have whatever value was determined for it as the spell was cast.
May 10, 2016 12:15 p.m.
I found that on wizards.com Hopefully this helps you better!
May 10, 2016 12:16 p.m.
Also Spacecoyote1313, if I'm not mistaken, you can activate any ability on a card that's on the stack, as long as the card itself doesn't tap. Because that creature has summoning sickness, you cannot tap it to activate an ability.
May 10, 2016 12:22 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #9
I appreciate your response but that is exctly why I asked the question and something I read a few times. As of the ruling of the third ability I had that covered, but no where in the ruling does it specify if the third can be used while still on the stack. I couldn't find anything about this, therefor I'm inclined to say yes it can because of the common knowledge rule in mtg, if it doesn't specify something like, "activate this only at the time you could cast a sorcery" then it's fair play.
May 10, 2016 12:23 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #10
And also the great point of tap to activate which Cozy's third is clearly not a tap to activate.
May 10, 2016 12:24 p.m.
I agree with you sain_cheese, I believe cause it's still on the stack and unresolved you can use the third ability.
May 10, 2016 12:28 p.m.
To activate the last ability, there must be a legal target: a spell on the stack. That target will determine the value of X and the converted mana cost of the card you discard. You cant activate the ability unless you can match the converted mana cost of a spell on the stack to that of a card in your hand
May 10, 2016 12:28 p.m.
That's the best part of his 3rd ability, he don't have to tap!
May 10, 2016 12:29 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #14
Thanks, that is my hope. Would make his third ability a little better because it would protect himself to an extent but, I would still like some sort of specific ruling on activating abilities on unresolved cards on the stack. Which for the life of me, I cannot find :/
May 10, 2016 12:31 p.m.
Noop, since you cards have no effect until they're in play, unless the card says so. For example; while Cage of Hands is on the stack, you can't return it to your hand. The same thing goes for Cozy's countering ability.
May 10, 2016 12:38 p.m.
Look at post #12. I think that should explain what you're looking for. So if your opponent cast Void Shatter for 3 mana, as long as you can discard a card with converted mana cost of 3, then it counters that spell.
May 10, 2016 12:41 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #17
That's the counter argument here. But why not? Please help me find the ruling where it would specifically say you cannot? I have played games when some instances i've tried to Spell Shrivel a Nantuko Husk and in response they have sacrificed it with its own ability so that it would go to the graveyard instead.. I'm purely inclined to think the opposite.
May 10, 2016 12:48 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #18
Unless otherwise specified, the abilities of a permanent card function only while that card is actually a permanent (that is, while it's on the battlefield).
Kozilek, the Great Distortion's third ability does not mention that it functions from any particular zones, so it's only usable while Kozilek, the Great Distortion is on the battlefield. You can't activate it while Kozilek, the Great Distortion is on the stack. Compare this to an ability such as that of Lightning Storm, which specifies that it can be activated while the source is on the stack.
You also seem to have a misconception about how the stack works. Kozilek, the Great Distortion'S first ability is the only ability that triggers when you cast Kozilek, the Great Distortion. You don't put all of Kozilek, the Great Distortion's abilities onto the stack for some arbitrary reason.
Shortly after you cast Kozilek, the Great Distortion, Kozilek, the Great Distortion will be on the bottom of the stack with its first ability just above it on the stack.
Now, the stack doesn't resolve all at once. In order to resolve the topmost object on the stack, all players pass priority in succession. Once that happens, the topmost object on the stack—and only that object—resolves. You must then pass priority again to resolve the next item. If at any point a player responds instead of passing priority, then you restart the pass to resolve that object instead of the previous one.
In this case, if your opponent casts a counterspell targeting Kozilek, the Great Distortion, you won't be able to counter it using Kozilek, the Great Distortion's last ability because Kozilek, the Great Distortion isn't on the battlefield. You'll need to find some other way to counter the counterspell.
May 10, 2016 12:55 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #19
That's what I was looking for, thank you. That's why his first ability triggers, due to the "when you cast" so that would make sense, more so than what I was thinking. Where can I find official rulings about the "stack" and how it works so that I can fully understand?
Thanks again!
May 10, 2016 1:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
Specifically, the rule for all of this is:
112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows:
The ability in question doesn't meet any of the exceptions.
May 10, 2016 1:02 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #22
Agreed, that was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much for finding that for me.. I was struggling and looking in apparently all the wrong places.
May 10, 2016 1:06 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #23
Abilities can only be found on permanents except when an ability says it can be activated in a graveyard, from exile, on the stack, etc. (Look at Glory, Lightning Storm, and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician for examples of abilities that can be activated on cards rather than on permanents.)
Also, remember that cards do not become permanents until they enter the battlefield, which in this case, means that Kozilek has to resolve.
May 10, 2016 1:07 p.m.
Sain_Cheese says... #24
Thank you for those examples to further clarify. Y'all have been amazingly helpful, I'll probably have a few more questions coming soon.. just picked up magic when BFZ was released and I'm trying to become way more knowledgeable before building up the courage to do Friday Night Magic.
May 10, 2016 1:15 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #25
To answer what you asked in post #19:
Complete rules for the stack and how it functions can be found as rule 405 in the comprehensive rules on WotC's website. Don't get ambitious and try to read and memorize the entire comp rules though, it is 213 pages of dense text. The best way to use them is open them when a question arises and use the document search function (ctrl+f on PC) to find specifically what you need to know at the time.
405 is only one page long so it may be worth a read. That only covers the stack and how it functions though. As you saw the rule that covers where an ability can be activated from is 112.6.
May 10, 2016 4:25 p.m.
Online platforms for Magic such as Xmage are great resources for testing out ideas and better understanding the game. I had been playing and working for Magic (as a Local Game Store employee) for over a year and still had a vague understanding of what the stack actually was and how it truly worked.
It wasn't until a friend showed me XMage and I could see the stack laid out in front of me visually while I played against other people that the game and it's complex interactions became elaborately more understandable to me. If you're tech savvy enough to get XMage up and running, I highly recommend trying it out. It's an awesome platform for self-learning and playing Magic.
May 10, 2016 4:45 p.m.
Thanks all for the input and helping me also to better understand the rule.
spacecoyote1313 says... #1
No because he has to actually be in play for you to activate his ability. Doesn't work while he, the spell himself, is on the stack.
May 10, 2016 12:02 p.m.