Is the stack always this complicated?Ink-Treader Nephilim.

Asked by Jokernaught 12 years ago

Pay attention Closely folks.

Under My control:

Ink-Treader Nephilim (ITN), Flame-Kin Zealot (FKZ), and a Haze Frog (HZ)

Under his control:

Rakdos the Defiler , Mindwrack Liege , and Spellbound Dragon

So opponents turn, He declares attacking Rakdos and Spellbound. He draws and discards Pestilence Demon giving Spellbound +8/+0 and he sacrifices half of his non-demon permanents. Leaving open 5 mana

In during my declare blockers phase, cast Cloudshift on (ITN)

In response, He casts Swerve changing Cloudshift to (FKZ)

In response, I cast card:Ranger's Guile Targeting (ITN) hoping to mass copy.

in RESPONSE to that, he casts Induce Despair targeting (ITN), rrevealing Prince of Thralls giving it -8/-8

But I respond with Emerge Unscathed targeting (ITN).

He has no more responses, and the stack needs to be cleared. Can some tell me what happened?

Seriously chaos.

metalmagic says... #1

Ok, I'm working on a response, haha. It's lengthy.....

August 9, 2012 12:33 a.m.

Jokernaught says... #2

Take your time. We aren't going anywhere.

August 9, 2012 12:41 a.m.

doinitwrong says... #3

Okay, so the order of items being placed on the stack (if I'm reading this correctly) are:

1. Cloudshift targeting ITN.
2. ITN's ability that will copy Cloudshift .
3. Swerve targeting Cloudshift (your opponent doesn't actually choose the new target until Swerve resolves).
4. card:Ranger's Guile targeting ITN.
5. ITN's ability that will copy card:Ranger's Guile.
6. Induce Despair targeting ITN.
7. ITN's ability that will copy Induce Despair .
8. Emerge Unscathed targeting ITN.
9. ITN's ability that will copy Emerge Unscathed

These then resolve in reverse order:

1. Each of your creatures except ITN gain protection from their copies of Emerge Unscathed (hint: pick black).
2. ITN gains protection from the original Emerge Unscathed (again, pick black).
3. Each creature except ITN gets -8/-8 until end of turn from their copies of Induce Despair . Rakdos the Defiler , Mindwrack Liege , and Spellbound Dragon all die, but HKZ and HZ will survive if you give them pro-black.
4. If ITN has pro-black, it will live, but if not, it gets -8/-8 from the original Induce Despair .
5. Each of your creatures except ITN gain +1/+1 and hexproof until end of turn from their copies of card:Ranger's Guile.
6. ITN gets +1/+1 and hexproof until end of turn from the original card:Ranger's Guile.
7. Swerve resolves, so your opponent must choose a new target for cloudshift (your hexproofed creatures can be targeted because you still technically control the spell).
8. The copies of Cloudshift resolve, flickering FKZ and HZ (they lose their protection, hexproof, and +1/+1).
9. FKZ's and HZ's ETB abilities go on the stack and resolve, Fog ging and giving your creatures +1/+1 and haste until end of turn.
10. The original Cloudshift resolves, flickering a creature of your opponent's choice. If your opponent targeted FKZ, it will flicker, losing it's +1/+1 and haste, but then giving all your creatures +1/+1 and haste again.

The end result is:

• Your opponent's creatures are dead.
• HZ has +2/+2 and haste until end of turn.
• FKZ has +1/+1 and Haste until end of turn.
• ITN has +3/+3 and gains Hexproof, haste, and Pro-Black until end of turn.

August 9, 2012 12:55 a.m.

metalmagic says... #4

Two posts, because it won't fit into one :/

Well, whenever you cast Cloudshift , card:Ranger's Guile, and Emerge Unscathed on your Ink-Treader Nephilim , your Nephilim's ability will go on the stack above those cards, respectively, as it will for your opponent's Induce Despair . So assuming you named Black with Emerge Unscathed , this is what happens:

1. Your ITN's ability resolves, placing a copy of Emerge Unscathed for black on each creature it can copy (only your creatures), in whatever order you choose since you control the source.
2. The copies of Emerge Unscathed will resolve in the appropiate order, giving your two creatures protection from black.
3. Emerge Unscathed resolves, giving your Ink-Treader Nephilim protection from Black.
4. Repeat step 1, except with Induce Despair . These copies will target EVERY creature on the battlefield, except the ones that have protection from black (which by this point means that the copies will only target your opponent's creatures. Put the copies on the stack in whichever you choose since you control the source, the Ink-Treader).
5. The copies of the original Induce Despair resolve in the appropriate order, giving -8/-8 to all of your opponent's creatures, killing them one at a time after each copy resolves.
6. The original Induce Despair tries to resolve, but is countered upon resolution (fizzles) because its target is no longer legal. (Your ITN has pro-black by this point,)
7. ITN's ability resolves, and a copy of card:Ranger's Guile is put onto the stack for each other creature it can target (again, only your creatures), in whatever order you choose since you control the source.
8. Assuming nobody does anything in response to all these RG's getting put on the stack, they will resolve in whatever you chose to put them on the stack, giving everything else +1/+1 and hexproof.
9. The original card:Ranger's Guile will resolve, giving you ITN +1/+1 and hexproof.
10. Your opponent's Swerve resolves, changing the target of the original Cloudshift to Flame-Kin Zealot .

August 9, 2012 12:55 a.m.

metalmagic says... #5

1. Repeat step 1/3, except with Cloudshift . Your ITN will not be bounced because the target of the original Cloudshift was changed from it to FKZ. Your Haze Frog is bounced when it is time for that copy of Cloudshift to resolve (based on how you put them on the stack), and it goes on top of the stack. Haze Frog 's effect resolves, preventing all combat damage from other creatures during that turn. Something else that happens here that is largely irrelevant, but kind of relevant is that the FKZ has two copies of Cloudshift targeting him. The first one will resolve as all of the Cloudshift copies from the ITN's ability resolves (in whichever order you chose), and when the original Cloudshift tries to resolve in step 12, it will fizzle because its target is recognized with a new permanent no memory of anything it affected or anything affecting/targeting it previously because it reentered that battllefield.
2. Cloudshift tries to resolve, but fizzles, as explained previously.

And then you have a 4/4 ITN, a 3/3 FMZ, and a 3/2 Haze Frog . All combat damage dealt by craetures other than Haze Frog this turn is prevented.

August 9, 2012 12:56 a.m.

doinitwrong says... #6

*Also, all combat damage this turn is prevented (though that's a moot point since your opponent's creatures are all dead).

August 9, 2012 12:57 a.m.

metalmagic says... #7

I actually derped there at the end. The only creature that will be boosted is your ITN, and it will be a 4/4. The other two were both bounced AFTER card:Ranger's Guile resolved, so they will not have that bonus. And the last two steps in my second post should be number 11 and 12, but TappedOut auto-corrects that when numbering in a list, haha.

August 9, 2012 12:58 a.m.

doinitwrong says... #8

Sorry, metalmagic is right about the original Cloudshift fizzling, my mistake.

August 9, 2012 1:02 a.m.

metalmagic says... #9

And I was actually right the first time, now that I look at it. Un-derp! Your ITN will be a 4/4, but if you bounce the Frog first, all yoru creatures will still get the +1/+1, like I originally said. It's late and I'm overthinking. I believe everything else I stated is correct.

A couple points: You choose the color when casting Emerge Unscathed , so you will not get to choose a different color for the copies. The only target that Swerve has when it is being cast is the spell itself, so he would actually not choose what to bounce until Swerve resolves, but you were saying he wanted to target the Flame-Kin Zealot , so that's what I based my model off of.

August 9, 2012 1:05 a.m.

metalmagic says... #10

Hey man, it was a long list of shit, haha. Small mistakes like that are easy to overlook, and it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since it is your opponent's turn anyway. Also because my numbering changed as I noticed other things, my step 11 should say 'repeat step 1/4, not 1/3.'

NO I WASN'T RIGHT. The ITN will be a 5/5. Damnit. Ugh. Both the Zealot and the Guile are boosting it, since it was never bounced. Now it is correct.

August 9, 2012 1:09 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #11

Ok. All of the complicated stuff starts happening in the Declare Blockers step. Here we go, PART 1:

1. You cast Cloudshift targeting Ink-Treader Nephilim . Since Ink-Treader Nephilim is the only target of Cloudshift , Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability triggers.
2. The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability (regarding Cloudshift ) goes onto the stack.
3. Your opponent casts Swerve , targeting Cloudshift .
4. You cast card:Ranger's Guile targeting Ink-Treader Nephilim . Since Ink-Treader Nephilim is the only target of card:Ranger's Guile, Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability triggers.
5. The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability (regarding card:Ranger's Guile) goes onto the stack.
6. Your opponent casts Induce Despair targeting Ink-Treader Nephilim and revealing Prince of Thralls . X for Induce Despair is set to 8. Since Ink-Treader Nephilim is the only target of Induce Despair , Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability triggers.
7. The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability (regarding Induce Despair ) goes onto the stack.
8. You cast Emerge Unscathed targeting Ink-Treader Nephilim . Since Ink-Treader Nephilim is the only target of Emerge Unscathed , Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability triggers.
9. The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability (regarding Emerge Unscathed ) goes onto the stack.

August 9, 2012 1:14 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #12

PART 2:

The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability (regarding Emerge Unscathed ) resolves. Emerge Unscathed is copied for all legal targets. A copy of Emerge Unscathed is created targeting Flame-Kin Zealot and a copy of Emerge Unscathed is created targeting Haze Frog . They are put onto the stack in any order you choose.

The first copy of Emerge Unscathed resolves. We shall assume you choose black in an effort to counter Induce Despair .

The second copy of Emerge Unscathed resolves. We shall assume you choose black in an effort to counter Induce Despair .

Emerge Unscathed resolves. We shall assume you choose black in an effort to counter Induce Despair .

The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability regarding Induce Despair resolves. Induce Despair is copied for all legal targets. A copy of Induce Despair is created targeting Rakdos the Defiler , a copy of Induce Despair is created targeting Mindwrack Liege , and a copy of Induce Despair is created targeting Spellbound Dragon . They are put onto the stack in any order you choose. Note that none of your creatures can be targeted by Induce Despair because they now have protection from black.

The first copy of Induce Despair resolves. Whatever creature it was targeting dies (none of your opponent's creatures have toughness of 9 or greater.

The second copy of Induce Despair resolves. Whatever creature it was targeting dies (none of your opponent's creatures have toughness of 9 or greater.

The third copy of Induce Despair resolves. Whatever creature it was targeting dies (none of your opponent's creatures have toughness of 9 or greater.

Induce Despair attempts to resolve, but is countered because its target is now illegal (Ink-Treader Nephilim has protection from black).

The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability regarding card:Ranger's Guile resolves. A copy of card:Ranger's Guile is created targeting Flame-Kin Zealot and a copy of card:Ranger's Guile is created targeting Haze Frog . They are put onto the stack in any order you choose.

The first copy of card:Ranger's Guile resolves.

The second copy of card:Ranger's Guile resolves.

card:Ranger's Guile resolves.

Swerve resolves, changing the target of Cloudshift to another creature you control. Note that your opponent does not announce the new target until Swerve resolves.

The instance of Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability regarding card:Ranger's Guile resolves. A copy of Cloudshift is created targeting Flame-Kin Zealot and a copy of Cloudshift is created targeting Haze Frog . They are put onto the stack in any order you choose.

August 9, 2012 1:15 a.m.

metalmagic says... #13

Yaaaaaayyy, more long posts to contribute :D Thanks Epoch!!

August 9, 2012 1:16 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #14

PART 3:

The first copy of Cloudshift resolves. Let us assume this copy was targeting Haze Frog . Haze Frog will be exiled, then returned to the battlefield under your control. Its ETB triggered ability triggers.

Haze Frog 's ETB triggered ability goes onto the stack.

Haze Frog 's ETB triggered ability resolves.

The second copy of Cloudshift resolves. Let us assume this copy was targeting Flame-Kin Zealot . Flame-Kin Zealot will be exiled, then returned to the battlefield under your control. Its ETB triggered ability triggers.

Flame-Kin Zealot 's ETB triggered ability goes onto the stack.

Flame-Kin Zealot 's ETB triggered ability resolves.

Cloudshift resolves. If Flame-Kin Zealot is the target, repeat steps 5 and 6 of this post. If Haze Frog is the target, repeat steps 2 and 3 of this post.

August 9, 2012 1:16 a.m.

metalmagic says... #15

Epoch, the last Cloudshift fizzles due to the copy of it already bouncing either one of the other two, haha.

August 9, 2012 1:19 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #16

The end result is dependent on which creature your opponent redirected the original Cloudshift to.

If your opponent chose Haze Frog :

Ink-Treader Nephilim will have +3/+3, hexproof,, haste, and protection from black until end of turn.

Flame-Kin Zealot will have +1/+1 and haste until end of turn.

All combat damage that would be dealt by creatures other than Haze Frog this turn will be prevented.

If your opponent chose Flame-Kin Zealot :

Ink-Treader Nephilim will have +4/+4, hexproof, haste, and protection from black until end of turn.

Haze Frog will have +2/+2 and haste until end of turn.

Flame-Kin Zealot will have +1/+1 and haste until end of turn.

All combat damage that would be dealt by creatures other than Haze Frog this turn will be prevented.

August 9, 2012 1:21 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #17

So it does. In that case, the end result will be that the table is flipped and you all go home.

Also, Ink-Treader Nephilim will have +3/+3, hexproof, haste, and protection from black until end of turn. Flame-Kin Zealot will have +1/+1 and haste until end of turn. Haze Frog will prevent other creatures' combat damage this turn. If Haze Frog was blinked before Flame-Kin Zealot , it will also have +1/+1 and haste until end of turn.

August 9, 2012 1:24 a.m.

metalmagic says... #18

Shouldn't it only get +2/+2? The Zealot is only bounced once, and the one card:Ranger's Guile gives it the other +1/+1, unless I am missing something boosting it.

I agree with the table-flip scenario, as Ink-Treader Nephilim should never be played with because of things like this.

August 9, 2012 1:28 a.m.

metalmagic says... Accepted answer #19

And just as a side note, I think we should ALL get this one right, since we all put forth an ungodly amount of time to type up a response and get frustrated.

August 9, 2012 1:35 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #20

I mistook the wording of card:Ranger's Guile for being +2/+2 and hexproof. I probably confused the buff with that of Joint Assault . It is +2/+2 overall for the Ink-Treader Nephilim . But that doesn't matter anyway because gamestate was lost when the table was flipped.

August 9, 2012 1:35 a.m.

Jokernaught says... #21

Well thank you all! It was an already long game and then that happened and we both went 'uhhh' One final question(s)?

So no combat damage because of the Haze Frog and because of the lack of attackers?

he wiped his own board clean?

Thank you all for Fairly rapid responses to a servely complicated stack. I got to give it to metalmagic for pulling on the boots and wading through all of that first, technically speaking. doinitwrong and Epochalyptik thank you for your answers. Much apperciated.

August 9, 2012 1:37 a.m.

metalmagic says... #22

Correct. Haze Frog could still deal combat damage, if there were anything left to block. His board is wiped because your stuff has pro-black, where his doesn't, meaning all of his creatures got the -8/-8.

August 9, 2012 1:40 a.m.

Jokernaught says... #23

But yeah you all got it right. If i could (ctrl+Select all) I would. The table came pretty close to flipping. But we both understood what happened was beyond our mortal grasp so we just walked away and watched the olympics.

August 9, 2012 1:40 a.m.

Epochalyptik says... #24

Actually, since this all happened during the Declare Blockers step, Haze Frog would have had to already be declared as a blocker. Not that that would matter, since it was removed from combat when it was Cloudshift ed. Basically, no creatures are part of combat anymore.

August 9, 2012 1:44 a.m.

Jokernaught says... #25

Thank you again. I will remember this the next time I play. That Ink-Treader Nephilim 's ability triggers the moment I cast a spell and select it as target. Then the copies resolve, then the orginal resolves. With this knowledge I think I will be able to manipulate the stack in my favor if something similar happens. And be able to explain it.

If you want to know the decks responsible

Master of Grixis and deck:flicker-me-this-hero-format.

August 9, 2012 1:53 a.m.

doinitwrong says... #26

BTW, to answer your question in the title, "Is the stack always this complicated?":

Rarely, but when it does happen, it's amazing.

August 9, 2012 9:44 a.m.

hunter9000 says... #27

Oh cool, I found a video of this game playing out.

August 9, 2012 11:53 a.m.