Is the combo between Exquisite Blood and Vizkopa Guildmage's ability illegal?
Asked by MikePlaysMTG 12 years ago
MagnorCriol says... #2
For the wholly non-creature (and non-Standard legal) version, there's Sanguine Bond in place of the Guildmage.
April 18, 2013 9:53 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #3
Can I ask a question? I'm going to anyways.
Why would it be?
April 19, 2013 1:23 a.m.
MikePlaysMTG says... #4
Some kid at a shop said infinite loops are illegal. lol
April 24, 2013 4:48 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #5
The short, layman's version of the answer to that is that infinite loops that will go on forever without the game changing ARE illegal. Things that go infinite but result in a changed state, like how this combo will kill a player, are legal, because they WILL end at some point - you can't dodge state-based actions.
April 24, 2013 5:45 p.m.
I was under the impression that infinite loops that don't alter the game state aren't illegal, they just result in a draw. Is there a rule I missed that makes them illegal?
April 24, 2013 6:57 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #7
Yeah, "illegal" isn't the most precisely-fitting term for it; that's why I said "the short, layman's version". Remember, you asked for this novel. =p
There's three sorts of infinite loops, right? Those that start and can't be stopped until they exhaust their resources, usually ending in a game loss for the opponent (like this Guildmage + Exquisite Blood one); those that a player starts and can go on as long as the player wants, until he calls a stop to it; and those that are true loops that both can't be stopped by the player and don't change anything in the game so they won't end on their own.
--The first type aren't, strictly speaking, "infinite" loops - they have a definite end - but they keep going off until that end happens. They don't tend to contain "may" triggers (note how both the Guildmage and Exquisite's abilities are required) and they usually end in death for the opponent, such as no life left or their whole library milled out.
--The second type are the ones where the player can say "Alright, I keep this up until I have 1 billion life and then I stop," for instance. Like the trick with having three Fiend Hunter
s out - you can bounce them as long as you feel like it, and if you have something that benefits off a creature entering the field (Soul Warden
, say) then you can use tournament shortcuts to say "I do this X many times." The Boros Reckoner
/ indestructible / lifelink combo is another example of this.These don't result in a draw and aren't inherently against the rules. HOWEVER, if you have to move through all the steps in the cycle - if it's significantly more complicated than three Fiend Hunters, in other words - and you take too long to go through the motions, you might get dinged for slow play. In order to be able to shortcut to "X many times" you have to be able to prove that you can repeat the cycle as many times as you like without running out of any resources, which may require running through the cycle once or twice. --The third type, where the game gets stuck in a loop and can't get out, is actually very uncommon - it takes a lot of work and some specific cards to make them happen, usually. They require both that whatever is powering them isn't a finite resource, AND that there's no optional triggers involved in them. If there's a "may" trigger somewhere in the cycle, at some point whoever has that trigger is required to end it, though I don't remember more specifics about adjudicating that. If it's a loop that has NO "may" triggers and will NOT stop, then the game can be called a draw.
It should be noted that there's a few things that seem a lot like infinite loops but, as far as the tournament rules are concerned, aren't - things that involve randomization. The now-defunct Eggs deck in Modern, for instance, or the various Polymorph-Emrakul decks from a few seasons ago. Both rely on being able to essentially infinitely cast things out of the library and reshuffle the graveyard back to do it again, but because the library and thus randomization is involved, it's technically not an infinite loop. Again, check with an actual judge for more about that if you're concerned.
April 25, 2013 12:58 a.m.
Ah, thanks for the clarifying novel, MagnorCriol. Clears things right up. :)
KrazyCaley says... Accepted answer #1
No. The insta-win is quite legal if you can get it out and make it go.
April 18, 2013 5:44 p.m.