How does "unused" targeting work?
Asked by Rambolicious_0 5 years ago
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Return to Dust can have 2 targets no matter when it is cast. What if it's not "cast?"
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Can Orim's Thunder still target a creature if it's not kicked (and do nothing to it)?
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Would Feather, the Redeemed 's ability work when a creature is an illegal target for the spell on resolution? Does it matter whether all or only some of the targets are illegal, or whether there is another effect? (Example: targeting Feather with Aurelia's Fury vs Chandra's Pyrohelix vs Expedite vs Brute Force followed by Gods Willing )
1) If Return to Dust is not cast but merely copied or otherwise put on the stack in some fashion, its controller would still choose 1 or 2 targets for it, because they are allowed according to the ruling. Nothing would happen to the second target because the timing requirement was not met.
2) From the rules on casting spells (just the first portion):
"601.2c The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets."
This indicates that Orim's Thunder would be cast as though it didn't require the creature target if the kicker wasn't going to be paid, or in other words that you'd have to plan to pay the kicker in order to choose a target creature.
3) Feather, the Redeemed 's ability triggers when you cast the spell, and all targets must be legal at this point. When the spell goes to resolve, at least one target must still be legal in order for the spell to actually resolve; otherwise it's removed from the stack with no effect and you won't exile it (same as if the spell is countered instead of resolving).
All spells with targets must have at least one legal target in order to resolve. It doesn't matter if they have another effect on them. So Expedite 's target must be legal, or you won't get to draw a card. Chandra's Pyrohelix or Aurelia's Fury could be divided among creatures and players, so as long as one of your creatures is one target and your opponent is another, then giving your creature protection won't cause the spell to fizzle.
April 11, 2019 4:46 p.m.
Rambolicious_0 says... #3
So Return to Dust can trigger Heroic of an artifact/enchantment creature without exiling it no matter when it's cast (and work with Feather)?
Orim's Thunder works with Heroic/Feather only when it's kicked (assuming I'm not gonna destroy my own artifact/enchantment)?
April 11, 2019 7:15 p.m.
Yes, that does seem to be the case.
With Return to Dust , it's because of timing. You could be casting this spell whenever, so you choose all targets you want at the time. The second target is subject to a "may," so you choose it or not. Then as the spell resolves, it checks whether you've cast it at the appropriate time for the second target to be affected. By this point, you've already cast the spell targeting your second target, so abilities like Heroic will have triggered.
With Orim's Thunder , it's because of costs. You have direct control over whether or not you're going to pay that kicker cost. So when the spellcasting steps require you to choose your targets, you declare whether or not you'll target a creature. Then when you determine the cost of the spell, the game accounts for your choice of targeting a creature and requires you to pay the kicker to make the spell valid, or backtrack to choose your targets again without the creature.
So unless you're targeting your own artifact/enchantment creature with Orim's Thunder , you will need to kick it to trigger Feather, the Redeemed .
pskinn01 says... #1
2.all targets are chosen when cast.
April 11, 2019 4:43 p.m.