'Enter the battlefield'; standing 'if' clause.
Asked by Yesterday 7 years ago
Hey there. Was playing with a friend recently, kicking his ass with Dragons and stuff. You know, the usual.
I had three creatures on the battlefield, my opponent had two. I cast Deathbringer Regent, opponent wanted to Unsummon his most valued creature after my dragon had entered the battlefield but before his creature was destroyed as he was otherwise happy with the board-wipe and wanted it to go through; he didn't want to bounce his creature in response to my spell.
I argued that the effect happens immediately as my creature enters the Battlefield and he would have to chose between bouncing his creature in response to my spell in order to save everyone (Deathbringer Regent's ability wouldn't trigger because there wouldn't be enough creatures on the battlefield as it enters), or having the spell transpire and everybody die.
I know that when I play a Stitched Mangler and target one of his creatures, he can reactively bounce that after I've targeted it.
In this case, can he bounce his creature after mine has entered the battlefield, but before everybody gets destroyed?
Gidgetimer says... #2
That "if" clause is an "intervening 'if' clause". The ability won't trigger at all if it isn't true, and will get checked again when it goes to resolve. If it is not true when it goes to resolve it will have no effect.
There are a limited number of things that do not use the stack and can not be responded to, but this ability and others like it are not on that list. So the ability will trigger and go on the stack because there were five other creatures when it entered. He can Unsummon his guy in response to the trigger, but it will have the same effect as if he had unsummoned his guy in response to the creature spell, because when the second check happend the "five or more other creatures" will not be true and the ability will have no effect.
May 16, 2016 8:49 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #3
The situation is more complicated than that, Boza. When a triggered ability has an intervening "if" clause, two things happen:
At the time the ability would trigger, it only triggers if the "if" statement is true.
At the time the ability would resolve, it only has an effect if the "if" statement is still true.
This means the ability first checks whether the "if" clause is true at the time the ability would trigger. Unless your opponent responds to Deathbringer Regent while it's on the stack by Unsummoning something, the ability will trigger just fine. Remember that triggered abilities are put onto the stack first when players get priority, so there's no point at which you can do something after Deathbringer Regent resolves but before its ability is put onto the stack.
Now, your opponent can certainly respond to the triggered ability by casting Unsummon. However, this would leave only four creatures other than Deathbringer Regent, so the "if" statement is now false. When Deathbringer Regent's ability resolves, it will have no effect.
May 16, 2016 8:50 a.m.
Thanks. Is there any notable card or interaction that practically takes into account whether the intervening 'if' clause is on the stack or not? I'm wondering if there's any reason it's not just listed as an ability to which people can't make a response.
May 16, 2016 9:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
I'm not quite sure you understand. The "if" clause doesn't go onto the stack. The ability does. It's just that the ability checks that clause both when it would trigger and when it would resolve. You're meant to be able to respond to the ability.
May 16, 2016 9:08 a.m.
Right, what I mean is, where would it matter practically if the ability has been included in a stack or not - where somebody has responded to it. Is there something obvious I'm missing about why somebody would ever respond to this ability instead of just responding to the creature being played?
But I guess a creature could exist with both this and another ability, and someone might want to react to the other.
May 16, 2016 9:21 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
If one of your creatures had toughness 3 or less he could Silumgar's Command to bounce the Deathbringer Regent and kill one of the other creatures. If two creatures had toughness 2 or less and he had a way to do 4 damage to Deathbringer Regent he could Jund Charm to mark the damage on everything.
The most important reason though is that triggered abilities don't work that way. Besides triggered mana abilities, triggers use the stack. Even spells with split second use the stack, that is just how the game works. The things that don't use the stack are called "special actions" and are listed in 115.2 in the comp rules.
May 16, 2016 10:34 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Don't think of it as "why would a player care about doing something later rather than now?"
Intervening "if" clauses are the current method of adding additional requirements or qualifications to a trigger event. In this case, they make sure that the board wipe only happens in a certain board state, which changes the applications of the card. You might not necessarily care whether it's more effective to respond to the spell and not the ability. The important thing in this case is the conditions under which the ability happens, not the timing of the ability specifically.
Boza says... #1
Yes.
The ability goes on the stack and waits to resolve. Players can react with abilities and instants in response to anything on the stack and it will resolve before the original ability.
The "if" clause has no effect on the timing of the ability. The only thing it affects is IF the ability actually triggers.
May 16, 2016 8:30 a.m. Edited.