Emrakul, the Aeons Torn vs Undead Alchemist
Asked by Demarge 13 years ago
In a game my Undead Alchemist connected to my eldrazi deck opponent and they milled Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and we ended up arguing for awhile about what happens. his argument was that before Undead Alchemist 's trigger fully resolves emrakul's would resolve first and all his creatures that were milled would be saved from the exile effect. I argued that Undead Alchemist 's trigger would resolve first exiling emrakul and the other creatures that were milled, but after I get my zombies he'd then shuffle his deck.
Also what would happen if Undead Alchemist were to mill a Blightsteel Colossus ?
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
If it is your turn when Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is milled, then your Undead Alchemist 's ability will go onto the stack and then Emrakul's ability will be put on top of it. Therefore, Emrakul's ability will resolve first. HOWEVER: Alchemist's token production is not reliant upon the ability actually exiling the card. You will still get a token.
If it is your opponent's turn when Emrakul is milled, then Emrakul's trigger will go onto the stack followed by the Alchemist's trigger. Emrakul will be exiled and you will get a token, but your opponent will still shuffle his or her graveyard into his or her library.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that cant be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.
Blightsteel Colossus uses a replacement effect. Instead of being put into its owner's graveyard, it is shuffled back into its owner's library. Therefore, Alchemist's ability won't trigger because the Colossus never hit the yard.
January 11, 2012 8:44 p.m.
i could be wrong tho my friend tells me that Undead Alchemist ability is a spell...an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn has protection from colored spells...tho im not sure...so im lookin for some rules that state so or otherwise'
January 11, 2012 8:48 p.m.
nibbles272 says... #4
Emrakul's ability reads "when emrakul is put into a graveyard", meaning he technicaly hits the graveyard and undead alchemists ability would than take effect, but than emrakuls would go next.
With blightsteel, he would never hit the graveyard due to the wording in his ability
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
January 11, 2012 8:50 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #5
The active player always receives priority first and he would place Undead Alchemist 's trigger onto the stack. Then you would receive priority and put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 's trigger onto the stack on top of Undead Alchemist 's trigger, thus resolving first. Then Undead Alchemist 's ability would fizzle with no legal target. From the MTG Comprehensive Rulebook:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
APNAP stands for Active Player - Non Active Player. As for Blightsteel Colossus , his effect is a replacement effect that triggers when he would be put into the graveyard. The replacement effect replaces his going into the graveyard, therefor Undead Alchemist won't trigger. From the MTG Comprehensive Rulobook:
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that cant be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.
January 11, 2012 8:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
An ability is not the same as a spell. Abilities are triggered or activated and their sources are permanents. Spells are cast or created on the stack by effects or players (who play spells from their hands).
Protection follows the DEBT acronym:
Damage - All damage that would be dealt to a creature with protection from X by a source of quality X is prevented.
Enchant/Equip - A creature with protection from X cannot be enchanted or equipped by anything of quality X.
Blocking - A creature with protection from X cannot be blocked by a creature of quality X.
Targeting - A creature with protection from X cannot be targeted by a source of quality X.
Undead Alchemist 's ability doesn't do anything that protection would prevent, and it's an ability anyway.
January 11, 2012 8:53 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
@KorApprentice: Undead Alchemist 's ability doesn't target anything. There's no way for it to "fizzle" for lack of a legal target.
January 11, 2012 8:56 p.m.
thank you as always Epochalyptik..my older brother has been teaching otherwise so thank you for clearing this up...it makes much difference in my understanding now'...ive been told that a spell such as Royal Assassin ability was a spell an could be counter'd using Counterspell ..
January 11, 2012 8:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
There are counters which specifically deal with abilities, such as Voidslime and Stifle . The distinction is important.
January 11, 2012 8:58 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #11
Sorry for the confusion about the ability 'fizzling', I had not read the ability thoroughly and was mistaken. Epochalyptik and Rhadamanthus are correct, Undead Alchemist 's ability does not target and thus would not 'fizzle', the 2/2 token will still be created in the Emrakul case.
January 11, 2012 10:58 p.m.
dafishwoovers says... #12
If 5 cards were milled by Undead Alchemist ; 1 being Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , 2 being instants, and 2 being other creatures and the active player was the controller of Undead Alchemist (so that emrakul resolved first), would the controller of Undead Alchemist receive just the zombie token from emrakul or would he/she receive all 3 zombie tokens?
December 28, 2012 12:38 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
You could have asked a new question for that.
I don't see what APNAP order has to do with anything here. The order in which Emrakul's ability and Undead Alchemist 's abilities resolve doesn't change what happens. Undead Alchemist 's ability will trigger three times: once for each creature.
Rhadamanthus says... #1
The zombie-making ability of Undead Alchemist and the shuffle ability of Emrakul, the Aeons Torn are both triggered abilities ("when", "whenever"). When multiple triggered abilities would be put onto the stack at the same time, you put the active player's on first, then the non-active player's on top of those. Since it's your turn, that means your Alchemist triggers go onto the stack, then Emrakul, which means Emrakul's triggered ability will resolve first.
The beauty of Alchemist's ability is that it doesn't have an "if you do" associated with exiling the cards. You still get the Zombie tokens regardless of whether or not the milled creature cards got exiled.
Undead Alchemist won't trigger for a Blightsteel Colossus . Because the Colossus' ability is a replacement effect ("instead"), it never actually goes to the graveyard.
January 11, 2012 8:44 p.m.