Do sources or players destroy permanents?

Asked by Faiths_Guide 3 years ago

Just curious for wording purposes:

Whenever a source you control would destroy a permanent...


Whenever you would destroy a permanent...

Faiths_Guide says... #1

Or does it need to be both:Whenever you or a source you control would destroy a permanent...


October 10, 2017 4:06 p.m.

Tyrant-Thanatos says... Accepted answer #2

Pretty sure it'd be a source. I can't think of any instances where a player themselves is destroying a permanent, as opposed to a source that they control.

Just keep in mind that dealing damage does not directly destroy things. A creature that kills another creature in combat is not a source you control destroying a permanent, it's a source you control dealing damage, the creature dies to SBA. That's why cards like Sengir Vampire are worded the way they are.

October 10, 2017 4:09 p.m. Edited.

Faiths_Guide says... #3

October 10, 2017 4:15 p.m.

Aura Shards is destroying the Artifact/Enchantment. The way it's worded does sort of make it sound like it's "you" but Aura Shards is in fact creating a triggered ability on the stack that says "destroy target artifact or enchantment". This is actually pretty important because it means protection from White/Green protects from aura shards.

Realistically Aura Shards should be worded "you may have Aura shards destroy target artifact or enchantment". "you" is only really in there because you are making the choice as to whether or not you want Aura Shards to destroy anything.

October 10, 2017 4:20 p.m. Edited.

Gidgetimer says... #5

I'm pretty sure it is neither. "Source" is used exclusively for damage. I think the correct templating would be "whenever an effect you control would destroy...." This would put it in line with the reminder text for indestructible as demonstrated on Sheltering Light.

October 10, 2017 6:44 p.m.

109.2c If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes the word source, it means a source matching that descriptioneither a source of an ability or a source of damagein any zone.

112.7. The source of an ability is the object that generated it. The source of an activated ability on the stack is the object whose ability was activated. The source of a triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) on the stack, or one that has triggered and is waiting to be put on the stack, is the object whose ability triggered. To determine the source of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7df.

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time wont affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone its expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.

Abilities always have sources. I'm not sure about spells though, now that I think about it. Maybe it should be worded as "whenever a spell or ability you control destroys a permanent"

October 10, 2017 6:47 p.m. Edited.

Gidgetimer says... #7

Yeah I thought about the fact that "source" is used for the source of abilities after I posted but editing on here is not a thing apparently so I just left it. I do maintain that neither players nor sources ever destroy anything. "Effect" is the result of a spell or ability and it is what would actually be doing the destroying as seen in the reminder text for indestructible.

October 10, 2017 7:05 p.m.

yeah agreed. "Whenever a spell or ability you control would destroy a permanent" is probably the best way to word it.

October 10, 2017 7:09 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #9

That isn't what I'm saying :P

"Whenever an effect you control...." is the way I am pretty sure it needs to be worded.

October 10, 2017 7:12 p.m.

That could work, but I don't know of any cards that use that format, there are plenty of cards that use the term "spell or ability", like Baral, Chief of Compliance, Psychogenic Probe, or Willbreaker.

October 10, 2017 7:26 p.m.

Faiths_Guide says... #11

Tyrant-Thanatos Gidgetimer

So either:

"Whenever a spell or ability you control would destroy a permanent..."


"Whenever an effect you control..."

October 11, 2017 11:36 a.m.

Faiths_Guide says... #12

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October 11, 2017 12:09 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #13

Templating looks fine. Playability and design are a discussion for the custom card forum so go ahead over there if you want feedback on that stuff.

October 11, 2017 1:18 p.m.

Faiths_Guide says... #14

Tyrant-Thanatos Gidgetimer

If I had that in play, would it allow me to exile an indestructible creature with her activated ability?

October 12, 2017 7:46 p.m.

Faiths_Guide no, when you target it with the ability, it attempts to destroy it, but because indestructible causes it to not be destroyed, the replacement effect has no destruction event to replace.

October 12, 2017 7:54 p.m.

Faiths_Guide says... #16

Tyrant-Thanatos Perfect, thanks.

Would this work?Whenever you cast a spell or activate an ability, you may change its text by replacing all instances of "destroy" with "exile."

October 13, 2017 11:36 a.m.

Yeah that should work. Text replacement isn't used commonly, but that looks to be the correct formatting for those sorts of effect.

October 13, 2017 1:44 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #18

Or you could add another ability to the card templated after the archetypes (e.g. Archetype of Aggression).

Permanents your opponents control lose indestructible and can't have or gain indestructible.

October 13, 2017 7:36 p.m.

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