Desperate ravings and devistation tide
Asked by Apoptosis 12 years ago
I cast Desperate Ravings during my opponents turn and the first card drawn in Devastation Tide . The miracle statement on Devastation Tide says I can cast it when I draw it. Does this mean I can cast devastration tide before the second part of Desperate Ravings resolves (the random discard of a card)?
My interpretation as written would be that you would be allowed to this for any card with miracle. Is this correct? Thanks!
Absinthman says... #2
Nothing in MTG ever disrupts a resolution of a spell or ability in the middle.
702.92. Miracle
702.92a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if its the first card youve drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."
702.92b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.
Whenever a triggered ability (which is a part of Miracle) triggers in the middle of resolving a spell or ability, it is put onto the stack the next time a player would receive priority, so when you draw your first card for Desperate Ravings
and it has Miracle, you reveal it. Then you finish resolving the Ravings which actually may result in discarding that card. After that the triggered part of Miracle resolves and let's you cast it if it still is in your hand.
March 31, 2013 10:17 a.m.
An interesting mechanical question: Miracle's static ability is to reveal it as you draw it, ostensibly to prove it was actually the first card you drew that turn, but you're then required to play with the card revealed until you either let the trigger pass or use it to play the spell.
Except Desperate Ravings requires you to discard at random, while you have a card revealed.
Do you unreveal it long enough to discard? That won't work because you might have another copy of Devastation Tide in your hand that wasn't miracle'd.
Do you shuffle and discard with your eyes closed? That sort of makes it into a dexterity thing which are all removed from the game.
I guess your option is to shuffle your hand, lay it on the table (with the revealed card face up) and then roll a die/generate a random number equal to the number of cards in your hand?
March 31, 2013 10:22 a.m.
Absinthman says... #4
@Devonin: Actually, choosing a card at random doesn't have any connection to revealing or unrevealing it. Shuffling cards and picking one without looking is only the most common method to randomly choose a card. You can also assign numbers to cards and roll a die to determine which should be discarded. Of course, this could be difficult in some situations. I assume that this would require a consensus with your opponents and I think that they wouldn't have any objections against briefly unrevealing your card to perform a discard.
March 31, 2013 10:32 a.m.
In a competitive REL I would NEVER let an opponent unreveal a Miracle card unless I was shown that their decklist and sideboard combined to only have one copy of the card. If they Miracle drew a Temporal Mastery say, and it turns out they already had one in their hand, wouldn't it be nice for them if they lost the Miracle copy, and then we had to argue over which one was the one they could cast as a miracle and which was the old copy.
March 31, 2013 10:35 a.m.
Absinthman says... #6
Although, now that I think of it, unreveal, shuffle, pick, is not a viable option here. In case you already had one Devastation Tide in your hand, and drew a second one with Desperate Ravings there would be no way to tell whenther the Tide chosen at random is actually the one you revealed. You would need to find another way. You can for example shuffle your hand and place the cards on the table one next to the other. Then have two people write down a number between 1 and X, where X is the number of cards in your hand. Each of them must not know what number the other one chose. Then add those number and substract X. The result is the position of the card that will be discarded. Example: You have 7 cards, one person chooses 6, the second chooses 5. 6 + 5 = 11, 11 - 7 = 4. You discard the fourth card. The only problem is that it's not entirely random as it depends on other people's choice, but I can't think of any other way for cases like this.
March 31, 2013 10:44 a.m.
But wait second... Desperate Ravings says to draw two cards, then discard a card at random. Wouldn't the miracle cost of Devastation Tide go onto the stack (since its cast at drawing). Then the second part of Desperate Ravings resolves, which might cause Devastation Tide to be discarded but since the activated ability of Devastation Tide has been added to the stack, it resolves even if it is the card that gets discarded? I know it's weird, but Desperate Ravings does have a comma and a then between the draw and discard actions, which implies the first action happens then the second and any triggered abilities that occur because of the first action would still happen?
March 31, 2013 10:58 a.m.
Absinthman says... #8
Important thing is that nothing can be put onto the stack until the spell or ability has finished resolving.
March 31, 2013 11:01 a.m.
Lots of talking going on, good talking, and I'm going to try and consolidate everything.
If you cast Desperate Ravings and the first card you draw (and it's the first card you've drawn for the turn) is Devastation Tide , you must reveal it if you intend on casting it. At this point, Miracle triggers but doesn't go on the stack yet. According to 702.92b (listed below), that card must stayed revealed. You then finish resolving Desperate Ravings by discarding a card at random. Due to keeping Miracle revealed, the preferred method is to lay your hand out on the table face down (except the revealed card is face up), assign each card a number, then roll a die to determine which is discarded. Once Desperate Ravings has finished resolving, the Miracle trigger then goes on the stack. When it resolves, you decide whether or not to cast Devastation Tide , if you did not discard it.
702.92b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.
March 31, 2013 12:03 p.m.
Thanks to everyone for helping clear that up. Let me add a variable. Let's say I have the emblem for Tamiyo, the Moon Sage 's ultimate. Then what happens (if the Devastation Tide happened to be the randomly discarded card?
My take is it would be discarded with the miracle still on the stack but Tamiyo, the Moon Sage would also go of the stack and return Devastation Tide to my hand before it was set to resolve. Despite having been discarded and returned to my hand it still qualifies as being the first card that I drew this turn and therefore would resolve (going to the graveyard a second time and returnIng to my hand through the emblem.
I'm adding this to the equation because the deck I'm thinking about could have all three elements here. Thanks again mafteechr, Absinthman, and Devonin!
March 31, 2013 1:08 p.m.
Once the card changes zones, the one in your hand now is not the same card as the one you had before.
March 31, 2013 1:15 p.m.
Absinthman says... #12
You are welcome, Apoptosis. Devonin is correct in answering your additional scenario. A card that changes zones loses all recollection of its previous existence and dealings, unless there is a specific effect that tracks its movement in a predefined manner, such as Obzedat, Ghost Council 's self-exile ability that still considers that card to be the same.
March 31, 2013 1:47 p.m.
That's also why cards that can exile and return will make specific reference to anything that is usually forgotten that stays remembered in that individual case.
For an example, compare Oblivion Ring to Oubliette
Oh, the [tags] only show the card image and not the oracle text. Oubliette now reads:
"When Oubliette enters the battlefield, exile target creature and all Auras attached to it. Note the number and kind of counters that were on that creature.
When Oubliette leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control tapped with the noted number and kind of counters on it. If you do, return the exiled Aura cards to the battlefield under their owner's control attached to that permanent."
Devonin says... #1
Desperate Ravings finishes resolving. You don't have time between the steps of drawing and discarding to resolve the spell in order to add more things to the stack. Once you've discarded your card at random, however, if Devastation Tide is still in your hand, you can still cast it at that time.
Miracle isn't a "You reveal it, and that very instant cast it" sort of thing. It's a static ability tied to a triggered ability that lasts until the card leaves your hand, the ability resolves, or otherwise leaves the stack.
I'll bow to the greater wisdom of others on the mechanical explanation here, which is how I -think- it works, so please do correct it if wrong:
As I understand the mechanics, the Miracle static ability creates the option for you to put the triggered ability on the stack, that lasts until the next passing of priority. IE: Since you revealed the card in the middle of another spell resolving, the static ability will give you one chance, the very next chance, to have the triggered ability go on the stack (They are both 'may' not 'must' so you can opt to not reveal it, or having revealed it, opt not to cast it) But since a spell is in the middle of resolving, you don't have the option to fire off that trigger yet.
Desperate Ravings finishes resolving, you discard your card, and -then- have the chance to put the Miracle cast on the stack.
March 31, 2013 10:14 a.m.