Can I cast 1 Reverberate on a Lightning Bolt and a second Reverberate and copy the first Reverberate?
Asked by jkrink2003 13 years ago
What I'm asking is can I cast a Reverberate on a spell like Lightning Bolt and then cast a second Reverberate copying the first and using that copy to continuisly copy the first Reverberate that was cast, essentially gaining infinite copies and then use the last copy you make to copy the Lightning Bolt . I was wondering about this because I have a Kiln Fiend deck i'd like to try this with if it is possible.
I do not think it is infinite, but I'm still not an expert on the stack.
I think it would go like this:1) Lightning Bolt 2) Reverberate to copy the bolt3) a second Reverberate to copy the first one
the copy made by the second reverberate could target a previous copy, but cannot target both it and Lightning Bolt . So you would need another hard copy of the Reverberate to get another bolt of out the copy. only does total of 9 damage if you copy the bolt twice. copy the reverberate spell just gives you another copy but no damage.
However, for a Kiln Fiend this combo could net you 3 pumps on the fiend. copies do not count as cast spells, however. so the copies would not trigger the Kiln Fiend , only once for each time you cast a spell from your hand.
July 7, 2011 5:30 p.m.
You cast Lightning Bolt . It goes on the stack.
You cast Reverberate targeting Lightning Bolt . It goes on the stack.
You cast a second Reverberate targeting the first Reverberate . It goes on the stack.
The second Reverberate resolves and the copy of the first Reverberate goes on the stack targeting the first Reverberate .
The copy resolves infinitely, creating a new copy that always targets the first Reverberate . Because the copy and the original are not the same spell, the original is valid target for every copy.
However, drhumbra is correct. There are only 3 spells actually being cast. And so Kiln Fiend will get +9/+0 until end of turn. And in order to end the infinite loop of Reverberate s, you will need to target a different valid target, or let the copy target the original target (Lightning Bolt in this case]]). Regardless, you will deal 9 damage from 3 different Lightning Bolt s, and a potential 10 damage from Kiln Fiend . 18 damage for just 5 red mana isn't a bad deal at all.
July 7, 2011 5:58 p.m.
With the second Reverberate constantly creating another Reverberate , essentially you have an on-going stack - it is infinite to an extent, the extent being that it goes on and on until you choose a different spell with the extra Reverberate . However, as previously stated, these are copies, and copied spells are not cast, therefore not infinitely triggering Kiln Fiend 's ability. Also, as these are copies, it wouldn't work for infinite spells for the storm mechanic - only 3 spells have been cast (paid for and played from your hand).
Another thing worth clarifying here, is that replicating a spell is also creating copies. There is a lot of confusion among players as to whether replicating is casting due to paying mana at the same time (paying for everything in one go). Djinn Illuminatus + Lightning Bolt with 7 mana for example, is an awesome combo, it's 21 damage!! (well, 7 sets of 3). But that plus the Kiln Fiend will still only pump it once, from the original Lightning Bolt .
I leave you with 2 really cool suggestions for the Kiln Fiend :
July 7, 2011 6:16 p.m.
Assault Strobe + Lightning Bolt + Lightning Bolt in a turn-3 win with Kiln Fiend , assuming there are no blockers.
But then there's nearly an infinite amount of ways to win with Kiln Fiend on the third turn, all of which involving some sort of "only works if"-clause. It just boils down to Assault Strobe + any two 1-drop Instant/Sorceries = 20 damage.
July 7, 2011 7:29 p.m.
ThiagoMaia says... #6
awesome, you can bolt any 2 drop creature that could block kiln fiend and double strike for the win !
July 7, 2011 7:45 p.m.
I always find an opponent can chump block, so I usually add those brilliant Unnatural Predation s too.
July 7, 2011 8:03 p.m.
if you are pumping creatures for damage, lets not forget about Fling
July 7, 2011 8:18 p.m.
i pump my Kiln Fiend for 10 and you Lightning Bolt it, I respond with Fling if I have it instead of Reverberate
July 7, 2011 8:24 p.m.
Distortion Strike is a favorite of mine. Eliminates blocking altogether AND Rebounds, if I can't get the job done in one turn.
Just know that Fling doesn't pump Kiln Fiend . You have to sacrifice Kiln Fiend as a cost for Fling, so Kiln Fiend technically isn't out as you cast it.
July 7, 2011 9:53 p.m.
Slightly off topic but can you draw a game officially if you make a stack of infinite Reverberate s?
July 7, 2011 10:41 p.m.
I believe that's true. If anything in a game makes an infinite, unending loop, that game ends in a draw.
Since you would've be able to stop the Reverberate s from copying each other, I believe it would end in a draw.
July 7, 2011 10:44 p.m.
xxxxxxCronoxxxxxx says... #14
you declare how many times you do the loop, if you declare infinate than the game is a draw unless the opponent can inturupt the combo somehow like countering
July 8, 2011 1:45 a.m.
That's not quite true:
104.4b If a game that's not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don't result in a draw.
I have italicised the keywords in comprehensive rule 104.4b.
July 8, 2011 5:12 a.m.
My bad. I didn't read close enough. Obviously you'd be declaring what your new copy is each time, so it's not an unending loop.
July 8, 2011 12:38 p.m.
For lol-factor, if you're in a losing position, just continue the loop until your opponent gets fed up!! New win-con: literally annoy your opponent to death!!!
July 8, 2011 12:42 p.m.
While funny, it should be noted that doing so in a real tournament would get you warned (or get a game-loss) from a judge for delaying the game.
And it'll make everyone think you're a dick.
But still funny.
July 8, 2011 1:03 p.m.
@zandl: of course lol, I just meant on the kitchen table!! I'd only want to piss off my friends at home! ;)
mtg311 says... #1
the copies created by reverberate are not cast, and therefore will not pump kiln fiend. u could infinately copy a reverberate with another, but with no gain.
July 7, 2011 5:26 p.m.