Both counter revival effects at once. What happens?
Asked by Bobby654 5 years ago
Could I have a creature constantly revive itself then have the counters cancelled out. Just for example. Twilight Shepherd with the bonus of Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Gidgetimer says... #2
While it is true that at no point in the interaction does 704.5q (the SBA about counters canceling) apply, it is untrue that Mikaeus, the Unhallowed doesn't combo with persist creatures and a sacrifice outlet. The creature will have both undying and persist. The first time it dies both abilities will trigger and whichever resolves first will return it and the other will do nothing, as cdkime said. I think that the part they missed is that after the first time it will have either a +1/+1 counter or -1/-1 counter on it. This will prevent one of the two abilities from triggering, but the other will still trigger and return the creature with the opposite type of counter.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is a static ability that grants all other non-human creatures undying. This isn't like Cauldron of Souls on an undying creature, the creature will have both abilities each time it dies with Mikaeus out.
April 19, 2019 5:42 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #3
To be clear: this does work. In your example: Twilight Shepherd dies, and let's say you decide to use its persist ability to bring it back with a -1/-1 counter. If it dies again then the undying ability granted by Mikaeus, the Unhallowed will bring it back with a +1/+1 counter. If it dies again then persist will bring it back, and so on and so forth.
Caerwyn says... Accepted answer #1
While you can use Persist and +1/+1 counters to create an infinite combo, you will not be able to do so with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed .
To start, per Rule 121.3: If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
This means that if you have a creature with persist enter the battlefield and give it a +1/+1 counter, the +1/+1 counter and the -1/-1 counter from persist will cancel one another out. Since there is no longer a -1/-1 counter on it, assist will trigger the next time that creature dies.
Likewise, if you used Undying and gave a creature a -1/-1 counter to cancel out the +1/+1 counter from undying, the creature would be able to benefit from undying the next time it died.
Here's the problems with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed .
First, that it gives creatures +1/+1 is irrelevant. This is a static boost to the creature's power, not placing a +1/+1 counter on the creature. Only +1/+1 counters cancel out -1/-1 counters; static boosts do not. So, while your creature's net change is +0/+0, it still has a -1/-1 counter on it, so persist would not be implicated the next time the creature died.
The second issue is that you can't benefit from both undying and persist. Both abilities will trigger when the creature dies. You will have to order them so that one resolves first, and the other second. The first will resolve and place the creature on the battlefield. As the creature is already on the battlefield, the second will have no effect. As such, you are either getting the creature with a +1/+1 counter if undying resolved first, or with a -1/-1 counter if persist resolved first; you will not get both counters on the creature, and thus will not cancel out either counter.
If you want infinite persist to work, you need to use something like Cathars' Crusade , which will place a +1/+1 counter on the creature to cancel out t he -1/-1 counter, or something like Melira, Sylvok Outcast or Solemnity to prevent the -1/-1 counter from being put onto the creature.
April 19, 2019 10:10 a.m.