Animate Library and Phasing
Asked by chosenone124 7 years ago
My opponent uses Animate Library on their library. I Reality Ripple it on my opponent's upkeep.
According to 702.25b If a permanent phases out, its status changes to phased out. Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist.
Since rule 120.1 does not specifically mention phased-out permanents, does that mean my opponent cannot draw a card from their library and loses the game?
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #2
Okay two things: First off, their library will phase back in before their draw step, so you'd have to force a draw effect on them to even cause this issue. Secondly:
120.4. A player who attempts to draw a card from a library with no cards in it loses the game the next time a player would receive priority.
Players lose the game when they attempt to draw a card from a library with no cards in it. If a players only library is phased out, they are not drawing from a library with no cards in it, because they don't even have a library. You're not just phasing out the cards in their library, you're phasing out the entire library.
Edit: Scratch that first part, I missed that you were phasing it out on their upkeep.
December 13, 2017 6:14 p.m. Edited.
chosenone124 says... #3
Tyrant-Thanatos So they don't draw from their library, because their library is treated as if it doesn't exist. But they don't lose because they aren't attempting to draw from an empty library, they are attempting to draw from a nonexistent one?
December 13, 2017 7:35 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #4
Yeah basically, and one of the Golden Rules of magic is:
101.3. Any part of an instruction thats impossible to perform is ignored.
So you would, in effect, disable their draw for the turn, but the rest of their turn would play out as normal. (or at least as normally as it can when you literally don't have a library)
December 13, 2017 7:47 p.m. Edited.
chosenone124 says... #5
Sweet. Out of curiousity, what would happen if you cast Approach of the Second Sun for the first time when you don't have a library? Would it just go to the graveyard? And I assume both sides of Commit / Memory have no effect on you?
December 13, 2017 8:53 p.m. Edited.
A Phased out Animated Library is treated as though it's not on the battlefield. It's still a Library that is treated as such:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/168001018898/how-does-animate-library-interact-with-phasing-it
December 14, 2017 12:56 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #7
Ah, fair enough. As Neotrup pointed out, and I missed, Phasing only affects things on the battlefield. It's a bit of a weird circumstance, but even though the library is phased out and treated as though its not on the battlefield, it'd still function as a library.
@chosenone124: Switch the accepted answer to Neotrup's post, yeah? My bad for missing that bit. (I should really stop trying to answer Q&A stuff and working at the same time lol)
December 14, 2017 1:12 a.m. Edited.
chosenone124 says... #8
Ah, so the rules aren't worded with Unstable cards in mind (shocker). Instead of "treated as if it doesn't exist" it's "treated as if it isn't on the battlefield"
December 14, 2017 2:15 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #9
Honestly it's essentially the same thing. We just have to remember that a card and the object it represents are two entirely separate things. If I control a Tarmogoyf and you cast a Reality Ripple on it, it's not as if the physical card itself doesn't exist, just the goyf that the card represents doesn't exist. In the case of Animate Library, just because the creature that your library is representing is phased out, doesn't mean the cards in your library are phased out. Cards don't phase, objects do, permanents, specifically. And because MTG cards don't refer to permanent cards that are on the battlefield, but rather the permanents themselves, this is something that in most practical application, makes no difference.
December 14, 2017 3:12 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #10
Right, I always forget the card vs object difference
December 14, 2017 3:18 a.m.
You get to draw from it still.http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/168001018898/how-does-animate-library-interact-with-phasing-it
SteelSentry says... #1
I don't think so. Animate Library is weird because the library is a zone, and it's being put into another zone. Permanents can phase out, but you can't phase out a zone, just like you can't exile or destroy one. Rule 120.4 covers losing the game by drawing from an empty library, but the library isn't empty, it's gone. There's literally no library there. I think you would still draw as normal, but it would be phased out on the battlefield and unable to be used as a creature until their next untap step.
December 13, 2017 5:59 p.m.