Would you draft a foil Goyf?
Limited forum
Posted on June 2, 2015, 7:29 a.m. by JexInfinite
Say you're in a Top 8 draft, in pack 2. You drafted pretty decent RW cards in pack 1, and you see Burst Lightning, which is a good first pick for your deck. You also see a foil Tarmogoyf. The foil Goyf is $510, but the Burst Lightning would make your deck better.
This is what happened to Pascal Maynard. He chose the foil Goyf with the reasoning that he could attend another GP with the money from it, rather than have a slightly better deck which could easily go 3-0.
Many pro players criticised this decision, saying that it was bad drafting, and how that decision cost him the win. Others question whether you want the foil Goyf, or pay $500 to play Burst Lightning in your deck.
What are your thoughts? I reckon it's bad drafting, and that at a high professional level, you pick what will make you win, not what has short term value.
GeeksterPlays says... #3
I would have picked the Goyf for 3 reasons;
1) Collector's value of owning a foil one OR with the value of it, I could attend more events / draft lots more.
2) So that no-one else got it to play in their deck for that round, I'd rather it sit in my Sideboard than my opponent's mainboard.
3) Even if i went on to lose, I'd still be very frickin' happy to have left the table with a $500 card - if I'd picked anything else and still gone on to lose, well what a pi$$er that would be.
June 2, 2015 7:38 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #4
GeeksterPlays 1st prize was $4000, 2nd was $2700, I believe. I'd rather win than get a foil Goyf.
Unless you opponent is sending strong green signals, I'd feel safer picking Burst Lightning. Removal is great, and Burst Lightning is such a great card. Tarmogoyf isn't as huge as it is in modern, usually a 2/3 or 3/4, which is pretty good for 2 mana in limited, but making your deck more consistent, and giving you an out with burn is too strong. There's no guarantee that you'll be against the guy who picked the Goyf, and sometimes getting the person next to you to consider drafting green can mess up their draft pool.
June 2, 2015 7:44 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #5
June 2, 2015 7:47 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #6
FAMOUSWATERMELON Pffft, that's about Pascal specifically. Nah, I want to know what people would do in a professional competitive limited environment. Want to way up whether the Burst Lightning is 100% correct, or if picking a Goyf is justifiable at all.
June 2, 2015 8:06 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #7
Okay, here's the rub. A lot of pros don't pay for their cards, so it's the technically correct play to get the Burst Lightning. Tarmogoyf is much better in constructed than it is in limited. As a person who does pay for all his own cards and is not 3 pro points from Worlds, I would 100% take the foil goyf.
June 2, 2015 8:25 a.m.
Grantley91 says... #8
I think taking it was right. Rather horde it for myself and maybe slash green for it then let someone who was already planning on playing green have it. Plus there's always the possibility that the Burst Lightning would come back... Not very likely but much higher chances than seeing the Goyf again.
June 2, 2015 8:36 a.m.
CaptainCaveman says... #10
$510 for a foil Goyf? By what pricing? Am looking at tcgplayer and first 5 vendors are selling it for just under $300. Anyways , I would have grabbed the Goyf and tried to talk myself into the reason that I was doing it was to hate draft and not the $. :/
June 2, 2015 9:29 a.m.
The "pros" can go fuck themselves, I'd pick the tarmogoyf anyday.Not everyone have the luxury of having his/hers expensive cards paid for, and should not be critized for it either.
June 2, 2015 9:41 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #13
The majority of pros do not have cards provided freely to them and the fact that a few might probably shouldn't be a consideration when forming an opinion on the topic.
Ignoring any monetary values, there is no way to justify hate drafting a Goyf over taking Burst Lightning when you have committed to drafting R/W. Without it's price tag I would never have a second thought about passing a Goyf in Limited. In comparison Burst Lighting is great limited removal and I would consider taking it and splashing as a third color if provided the opportunity.
June 2, 2015 11:04 a.m.
Even ignoring the monetary value, there is such a thing as a block pull.
Correct me if I'm wrong--I've never drafted MM2--but isn't there a UG proliferate-graft archetype? Also, wouldn't Goyf be terrifying for that?
Yeah, "best for your deck" doesn't translate to "best pick." Generally ridiculously valuable cards are good pulls because they're valuable for a reason; even if they're not going into your deck, they pose a real threat to you.
June 2, 2015 11:12 a.m.
1).Taking one bad pull does not necessarily mean your deck will fail.
2). Hate picking to stop others from getting a card is a legit thing.
3). Pursuing immediate economic income versus potential future income is a better financial perspective to take. Read game theory and other economic principles to find out more.
4). He does not need to answer to your misguided attitude towards what 'professionalism' actually means. Protip - its subjective.
Those are my thoughts.
Would I do it? Yeah.
June 2, 2015 11:18 a.m.
The correct pick was, and still is, Burst Lightning. In the top 8 of a GP every little percentage point matters, and Tarmogoyf is not a great card in Limited.
June 2, 2015 11:23 a.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #17
Hate drafting a Goyf over an on color Burst Lightning is not the correct decision and never could be if ignoring card values.
June 2, 2015 11:27 a.m.
Man, I want to sit at a draft table with everyone here that's advocating hate drafting a vanilla creature. If nothing else comes from this thread let's try to drill this out of you all.
In general, hate drafting is already a pretty poor decision. Making one of your seven opponent's decks worse rather than improving your own is not worth it. Even if you win every match, at most you only play three other people in a typical eight player draft. There's greater odds that the card is in a deck you won't play against than their is that it will be. That's before you even drill down to the statistics of the match itself of the chances of them drawing it, which still only accounts for at most 1/3rds of your total matches played in the draft. You play way more games of magic with your deck than games of Magic against that deck. It's always better to improve your deck than to try and make someone's worse.
Putting that aside, Tarmogoyf is not even the kind of card worth hate drafting. Outside of constructed it doesn't grow that quickly, and even in the right conditions a large efficient creature isn't that big a deal. Vanilla creatures can be double blocked, chumped, etc. A Tarmogoyf is not going to single handedly win someone the game, unlike say a card like Comet Storm could.
The only time you should be hate drafting is when there is actually no other pick or maybe when your deck is stone cold to a pick, like say you're in mono-black there's no decent pick in the pack and Mirran Crusader is in there.
June 2, 2015 11:48 a.m. Edited.
I'll just 2nd what ChiefBell said while adding the sentiment from AG4W's comment. I open a pack and see a $300+ card staring back at me, it's mine and fuck anyone who has something to day about it.
June 2, 2015 11:53 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #20
ChiefBell Missing an important card for your deck won't make you fail, you just won't do as well, and when you're in a Top 8, small advantages mean everything. If you want to win, which you should if you made Top 8, prioritising that over a value card is more important. If I knew I wasn't at the top of my game after a long, hard day, I'd still take the Burst Lightning, because that would raise my chances, of winning.
Hate drafting in Pack 2, when colours are sort of open, doesn't really do much, and it's not like it's a Comet Storm or an off colour Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Goyf is just a decently good card, but nothing insane.
An interesting, but subjective, view on finances.
Professionalism would be what Pascal actually did, and accept that he had a bit of a screw up. A professional level of play is something entirely different. A professional standard of play means you're competing against the best, and if you're in that position, the best are competing against you. You would be considered a high level player, so people are going to try and beat you just as much as you would beat them. To not give yourself the best chance of winning by committing to a decision which was avoidable is incorrect from a 'winning' point of view.
June 2, 2015 11:56 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #21
Slycne That's basically all that needs to be said about hate-drafting it. I'd definitely hate draft something which literally wins games on the spot, and Goyf is not that card.
However, if you decide that you want to commit to green, and it's still reasonably open, and your RW pool is kinda bad, you could maybe justify it, but that's still a stretch, because you committed 1 packs worth of picks to your colours.
June 2, 2015 11:59 a.m.
JexInfinite Professionalism still does not mean he has to answer to anyone in the public, no matter what you think. As in, as soon as you start playing at a high level it does not automatically mean you have to start giving a shit about what others think about your play.
June 2, 2015 12:40 p.m.
In Pascal Maynard's exact position, playing for a GP win and just a few points away from getting to Worlds, I would've taken the Burst Lightning. If it was any other tournament where prizes were not thousands of dollars and a chance to go to Worlds, I would take the Goyf in a heartbeat.
Regardless though, Maynard still got 3rd place even with taking the foil Goyf, so even though his P2P1 couldn't go into his deck, he still made a pretty decent deck. Maybe if he would've taken the Burst Lightning over the Goyf and he would've gotten first, maybe he never would've drawn the Burst Lightning and it wouldn't have mattered and he still would've gotten third, but just without the Goyf.
June 2, 2015 2:43 p.m.
The goyf is now up to >$3000, so along with his prize money from getting to the semis, he's going to make as much money as 1st place. If I was in the top 8 I'd take the goyf. If I was Pascal though, id take the lightning because a worlds slot is on the line. However, him taking goyf doesn't "compromise the integrity of the game," as some pros have been saying.
June 2, 2015 3:36 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #26
Would you pay 500 dollars to have a Burst Lightning in your draft deck? I would have taken the Goyf most likely, and I think it was the right pick for Pascal as well.
June 2, 2015 5:41 p.m.
He can like go to more events to earn more points you know? This isn't the end of his magic playing career.
June 2, 2015 5:43 p.m.
Well currently the Goyf has a high bid of $12,000.00 with 6 days still left in the Auction. Also he is donating 50% of the proceeds to charity.
June 2, 2015 8 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #30
He still nets 6000, at the very least, which is more than first place.
God, that's like the price of some of the power nine. Holy crap.
June 2, 2015 8:02 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #31
I am a filthy casual. I would have drafted the hell out of that card. I also would not feel bad. Not even one bit.
I also would have rare drafted that whole draft.
This is one of the many reasons why I am not, nor will be a pro.
June 2, 2015 10:30 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #32
Not only would I have drafted it, I would have drafted it face up. I also would have taken a lap around the city.
June 2, 2015 11:13 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #33
16K and counting... He's gonna sell this thing at the price of a Lotus...
June 2, 2015 11:15 p.m. Edited.
JexInfinite says... #34
FAMOUSWATERMELON He didn't get the pro-points, but he definitely got the money.
June 2, 2015 11:19 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #35
I'm predicting at the very least least $25000. I mean, even if he only nets 12.5 thousand, that's still three times the first place prize. Good decision as far as I'm concerned :)
So much for only $510 for the foil goyf XD
June 2, 2015 11:22 p.m. Edited.
I would have most definitely picked goyf. But I have no mtg funds and stuff sooooo that influences my opinion.
June 3, 2015 5:03 p.m.
I can't believe this guys going to sell it for soo much. Also, FAMOUSWATERMELON, if I'm correct it involves people who placed false bids on it, or something like that. I don't really get it, but I guess someone removed some false bids from it.
June 4, 2015 9:21 a.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #40
Look, the burst lightning was the right pick but a goyf isn't the wrong pick. Dude was running boros aggro. A goyf will stall that. It was perfectly valid to pick so someone else wouldn't. But more to the point, it wasn't like it was a choice between a goyf and a burst lightning in his deck. It was a choice between having a burst lightning in your deck or some other card that works almost as well while you have a foil goyf in your sideboard. And yeah, I would have drafted that fucker face up. And if it wouldn't disqualify me, I would show everyone what I was drafting and what I gave up for that goyf.
June 4, 2015 6:41 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #41
Serendipitous_Hummingbird The chances of playing against a single Goyf out of 24 packs is low, and Goyf is just an average, maybe slightly above, card. It's not the powerhouse it is in legacy and modern.
June 4, 2015 10:54 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #42
Yes, you're in the Top 8. Yes, you could win. But first, you're playing other great players. You have a 1 out of 8 chance now to win the GP. Yes, your deck gets worse. But you take the goyf. Pros can diss him all they want. People like me who are on the goyf side are just going to call them haters, and possibly jealous he took the foil goyf. And I don't think its true that picking 1 card, even though its pack 2 pick 1, overly changes your win percentage soooooooo much that you don't win a GP.
June 5, 2015 7:40 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #43
SwaggyMcSwagglepants The jealousy argument is only used in desperation, and when all other arguments fail. Don't use it at all.
Burst Lightning is a brilliant card. It's removal, and it can go to the face. If you have lots of mana, it deals more damage. Without such a high quality card in your deck, you will run into issues. Imagine a Soul Sisters deck without Path. That's what it was.
June 5, 2015 9:16 p.m.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Foil-Tarmogoyf-MM2-Stamped-GP-Vegas-Top-8-Pascal-Maynard-/261911963536?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cfb2b6790
June 6, 2015 9:29 a.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #46
JexInfinite keyword possibly.
Also, that's way to strong of a position of Burst Lightning. If it was Lightning Bolt then sure, maybe I would concede, but Burst Lightning isn't nearly as good as bolt. 
for 4 damage is pretty expensive in this format. And Path to Exile just auto-kills. Unless you topdeck it in a late-game parody, it's going to be a Shock because it isn't mana efficient enough early on unless that's the only way you can kill a creature that's going to kill you.
And to be honest, the only reason this is a controversy is that he wasn't in 
. If he was , then everybody would be happy and be like, "At least he could play it if he wanted to do that." And if he didn't pick it, the next person would. And if they weren't , Owen Turtenwald would still try to attack him, because he does get tilted a lot.
June 6, 2015 2:11 p.m.
SimicPower says... #47
I would have taken the Goyf no doubt. Not for hate drafting, as that is almost always pointless. I guess it would just be cool to have a foil stamped Goyf. And as we now have seen, it is selling for upwards of $10,000. That is power 9 level $$. The decision would be so much tougher if there was a Comet Storm in the rare slot...
I wonder if people are going to start calling Pascal's decision to take the Goyf "Pascal's Wager".
greenkingwashere says... #2
I would have picked the goyf, not only because the $, but not letting the green guy next to you have it and there was a possibility more good green could have come up and I could've splashed green for him.
June 2, 2015 7:32 a.m.