Rules 104.4B and 715.4
General forum
Posted on Feb. 26, 2013, 6:17 p.m. by ResurrectedSage
I'm having quite the argument with some friends over whether or not Mindcrank and Bloodchief Ascension is an infinite combo and results in a draw. They (friends) are saying that since being milled out or loss of life would result in being finite, it doesn't count. Can anyone who is a rules cert or judge tell me the ruling on this? I'm still standing on the fact that it's an infinite combo and would be a draw.
ResurrectedSage says... #3
I'll keep that in mind. But that same person who said he was a rules cert said that Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood was the exact same as the Bloodchief Ascension /Mindcrank combo
February 26, 2013 6:31 p.m.
mossflower says... #4
Another point: the game is not a draw in either case because of the fact that you lose as a state-based action, meaning that the instant a player reaches 0 life, he is out of the game: you can't continue to make him lose life.
See rule 104.3b: If a player's life total is 0 or less, he or she loses the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
February 26, 2013 6:36 p.m.
mossflower says... #5
Also relevant: 104.5. If a player loses the game, he or she leaves the game. If the game is a draw for a player, he or she leaves the game. The multiplayer rules handle what happens when a player leaves the game; see rule 800.4.
February 26, 2013 6:39 p.m.
ResurrectedSage says... #6
So what you're saying is I need a way to not get screwed in the butt by these guys who found the loopholes to the loopholes?
February 26, 2013 6:43 p.m.
I don't understand why it would be a draw. At any time, if a player controls both Bloodchief Ascension and Mindcrank , the following conditions may apply:
- That player's opponent's life total is reduced to 0 via the Bloodchief Ascension /Mindcrank combo. State-based actions are checked and that opponent loses the game.
- That player's opponent has no cards left in their library via the Bloodchief Ascension /Mindcrank combo. Bloodchief Ascension no longer triggers because that player can no longer put cards from the top of their library into their graveyard. They would, however, lose the game the next time they would draw a card.
- Bloodchief Ascension 's controller chooses not to have their opponent lose 2 life.
February 26, 2013 6:48 p.m.
ResurrectedSage says... #8
I looked and there was only this one. My bad... just been on my mind all day.
February 26, 2013 6:55 p.m.
I don't know why you'd want to force a draw, but if you want an actual infinite combo you could wipe the board and get three Oblivion Ring s down... you can't control how many times that loop will happen so it is actually infinite.
February 26, 2013 7:04 p.m.
If this combo is something you run into often in your playgroup, running a number of removal spells to deal with it may be worth it. Depending on if you're playing a certain format or not, there's plenty of options available. Ones that allow you multiple removal options (Oblivion Ring /Abrupt Decay /Mortify /Cyclonic Rift , etc.) would be ideal.
February 26, 2013 7:23 p.m.
ResurrectedSage says... #11
I'll definitely run more Oblivion Ring since my main deck is a B/W aggro/token combo. I might splash some green in for the Abrupt Decay because to me all that says is that someone found a combo and exploited the hell out of it.
February 26, 2013 7:58 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #12
ResurrectedSage, I see what's snagging you, and I get why it would be. Hopefully I can explain it clearly enough.
The problem is, you're misunderstanding the situations where 104.4b arise.
The trick is that it's a couple of triggered abilities causing this otherwise infinite loop. However, triggered abilities still use the stack, and thus SBAs are still checked before each one resolves. So after every time one of the triggers resolves, the game will check SBAs, and eventually one of them will find a state that causes a player to lose the game. Then once that player has lost the game, either the game is over (if you were in a duel) or all the other triggers "fizzle" since their erstwhile "target" has left the stack. (That's a simplification but the little details aren't important for this discussion.)
An infinite loop, like 104.4b is referring to, is something that can keep going on truly indefiniely. Basically, in a situation like this, the game will keep going forever with no way to stop it and no change in the game state - it becomes a perpetual motion machine. slashx24 tangentially mentioned one, with O-Rings. It takes some setting up to do (since you have to have no other permanents on the field), but you could, in theory, start looping with three O-Rings and set up such an infinite state.
See the difference between these two situations? In the Bloodchief Ascension +Mindcrank combo (or Sanguine Bond +Exquisite Blood combo), there's a definite change happening to the game state with each iteration of the loop - life is being lost and cards are being milled. With a true infinite loop that results in a draw, nothing is changing, and the state-based actions that govern the game will never see a different state.
February 26, 2013 7:59 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
For everyone's reference and for the sake of clarity, here's the full text of 104.4b:
104.4b If a game thats not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action dont result in a draw.
The most important part of the rule is "with no way to stop". The Mindcrank / Bloodchief Ascension combo will always stop. Either the player will run out of cards first and stop losing life, or will run out of life first and stop milling because he left the game.
February 26, 2013 8:45 p.m.
ResurrectedSage says... #14
Now I get it. I'm still unhappy because I dislike people who use combos only like this and think it's fun/funny but personal feelings aside I get it. Though I don't like it.
mossflower says... #2
I think the
keymost important word is the word "may" in Bloodchief Ascension . According to rule 716.3: "Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue."I interpret this to mean that at some point, you must choose not to use Bloodchief Ascension 's ability, so the game cannot be a draw.
February 26, 2013 6:28 p.m.