Has The Magic Community Become Too Obsessed With Winning?
General forum
Posted on March 26, 2016, 10:59 p.m. by primtj17
When I first started playing magic with my friends, we enjoyed throwing together decks with whatever we had, and just loved to see how random cards worked together. Every once in a while, somebody would find a good or funny combo and would win a bunch of games, but then they decided to make a new deck. We didn't have any of these new sites like Pucatrade letting us trade cards, or buy cards. We didn't spend hundreds of dollars to build a deck. We played to have fun.
Then, we discovered a thing called "Standard." Apparently, we couldn't use a lot of the cards we had, because they were "illegal" in this format. So we decided to make decks for this format. At first we all sucked, which figures because we had next to no standard cards and what we did have was not good. Then we started getting better; however, the better we got, the more money we were spending. I admit I spent just as much as everybody else. I got a really good deck going, and did well in some games against my friends. Then we learned about how standard rotates.
"So all these cards I have and this deck I made wont even be legal in a month?!?"
So, I groaned, sold and traded some of my cards, and started on a new deck.
2 years of this later, and I've gotten sick of it. I know how to build a good deck. I've done it before. But, I know it will cost me. A good standard deck costs upwards of $300 to even $800 in some cases. Commander is just as bad, often upwards of $1000, and Modern is definitely not cheap either.
So my question is, has the magic community become so obsessed with winning that the only thing that matters is spending money and building expensive decks to play at FNMs?
I guess what I am trying to say is, shouldn't The Makers be more focused on letting the magic community having fun, not just enticing them to spend more money?
(And please dont just say: "oh what are you talking about $300 dollars is nothing I carry that in pocket change" or "they're a company what do you expect" or something like that. I want to have an honest to goodness discussion and hear what you guys think)
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #4
Have you heard of the three types of magic players? Spikes, timmys and johnny's? You're mainly talking about spikes in this. They'll do whatever it takes to win. There are other people though. Timmy's and Johnny's just like to have fun with dumb cards. I'm personally a spike, but a few of my other friends just absolutely don't like playing in tournaments. They prefer the massive free for all games where how good your deck is doesn't really matter. One of my friends hates building decks that are "good for modern" He just builds decks he likes and he plays them with all of us. There are lots of people in the community who are too obsessed with winning, I agree. But it's not everyone.
March 26, 2016 11:10 p.m.
One thing you have to consider is that "the makers" (Wizards of the coast) are a business. They don't care about fun the way you are putting it. Many players still have fun the way it is set up, and I know the feeling of having it lose its luster. But a lot of the prices you are are the secondary market that wizards has no control over. They print the cards, but they ultimately leave it to the players to determine their worth. They just care about selling their initial product for its initial price (which is all sealed product I believe). A lot of players play casually (tabletop) anyway. My friends and I have made rules before setting parameters that cards over ten dollars can't be used and that forces us back into the fun of it from time to time. There are ways around it, it just has to be agreed with your friend group. Hope this helps!
March 26, 2016 11:12 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #6
Well okay. Here's why your argument lacks.
There are more formats than standard and at the fnm level you can play damn near anything you want at whatever budget you feel like. Need examples? Saffronolive from mtggoldfish has an entire article series featuring budget decks that still manage to mow down tournaments.
Supply and demand. It's a good thing to learn. You're not the only one who wants that sick Tarmogoyf and no amount of printing is going to magically fix that. Want an example of that? Look at yugioh and pokemon.
Fun is subjective. Some people find collecting rare and expensive cards fun. Is their fun less important than your fun?
Tldr: you just sound salty.
March 26, 2016 11:17 p.m.
Yeah I enjoy finding a mechanic or dumb rule in some cards and exploiting them or making a deck around them. Stuff like Vraska the Unseen and Hot Soup, or a funny goblin deck, or something like that. I'm agree that not all magic players are spikes, but I do think that nowadays much many more people care about winning then they used to. One of my good friends has played since magic began, and he used to love it. Now, he rarely plays because all his students are huge standard and modern tournament players. I just feel like the magic community should remember where it came from.
March 26, 2016 11:17 p.m.
amazingdan says... #8
Honestly, if you're looking for a fun format that doesn't cost a lot, organize some kind of Pauper thing within your playgroup. I honestly love Pauper, but my casual playgroup won't go for it because they won't be able to run their Sol Rings(super, super Timmy). You don't need an expensive deck to have fun. If you're just looking to have fun without spending a ton of money, make some janky decks. I run a $20 Assault Formation deck whenever I go to FNMs, and although it doesn't usually get top 8, I have a lot of fun with it. Commander can actually be very cheap; I've put together one to play casually that cost less than $50 with junk rares I had lying around. I could list a number of ways you can play Magic, without spending over $50, and have a ton of fun(drafting, for example).
In response to your question, I don't think the Magic community is "obsessed" with spending gobs of money and winning FNMs. The end goal of any game ever is to win. In Magic, you win by having good, synergistic cards and knowing how to use them. If the cards work really well together, they will go up in price.
If you're tired of rotating formats, try some eternal formats like Modern or Legacy. There are plenty of budget decks around the site that are pretty hilarious to win with. A YouTube channel called MTGoldfish has a series called "Budget Magic" that you might be interested in. There are no ends to different decks.
March 26, 2016 11:21 p.m.
Competitiveness is natural for most people. Even in my casual group where no deck really is worth more than $80, the smack talk and tempers flare up occasionally.
If one new deck dominates for too long it's no longer about fun and the game becomes "gotta humiliate the champ" or they just won't play at all until it gets dumbed back down.
March 26, 2016 11:24 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #10
As primarily a Commander player, I agree. Now, I can't say that the issue is the price of the decks since I play more on MTGO than IRL, but it seems that the culture has shifted to the point where the average player has chosen to play a tried-and-true deck rather than experiment with a unique concept. It's not bad or unfun, it's just boring to me when every other deck is either Oloro, Animar, Karador, or Nekusar. Where are the Gwendlyn Di Corci decks? Where are the Rosheen Meanderer decks? Where are the Yisan, Wanderer Bard decks? Have so many Johnnies and Timmies and Melvins really been converted to Spikes?
March 26, 2016 11:28 p.m. Edited.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #11
There was an article a while back when the twin ban came out for modern. It spoke about how wizards doesn't make as much profit for modern pro tours. In otherwords, they don't make profit off of singles. They sell sealed products and sealed products only. The player base is the only reason prices rocket. Yes, they are a company and making money is important, they can only do it by selling sealed product. Also guys, don't make fun of a post because you think what they said was stupid. We all have a right to our own opinion and shouldn't be made fun of for speaking our minds and asking questions.
March 26, 2016 11:31 p.m.
Also, it sounds like you need some other form of acquiring cards. While the total value of the cards in my deck may total close to the amounts you've listed at times, I never even remotely come close to spending that actual amount of money on a deck. And I highly doubt that a majority of the magic community is dropping $300 every time they want to play a deck. Besides, even though things rotate, not everything does. Yes some decks lose a lot, but it's ridiculous to think every deck in standard needs the entire 75 replaced every rotation. So, on average, half the value of your deck you already own as soon as rotation hits. I'm not stupid, I know you don't need the best deck in the world to play at FNM. So anyone willing to put in the effort and who has even a small collection can acquire new cards via trade or prizes.
If your spending $300-$800 dollars every time you build a deck, then the problem isn't how Wizards does business, the problem is how your acquiring cards. And if your actually by some weird chance in some unexplainable situation where the only way you can acquire new cards is by spending top dollar on them..... then I suggest not changing your entire deck so often and figure out how to adapt what your currently playing to face what the people at your LGS are playing. At least then you won't have to spend $300+ on every deck. You'll only need to purchase the things you need to change.
March 26, 2016 11:36 p.m.
This is playgroup dependent. The ideal is to find (or train up) like-minded people to yourself in this.
Sealed is the best I have found for just having fun and playing magic.
Multiplayer EDH is the best constructed format I have found for more casual play. As a group you can set limits, make house bannings, and keep each other in check on overspending. This is especially true if you share decks and play structured multiplayer like emperor. You can also develop point systems that reward agreed upon or secret goals and penalize the things your group agrees that they hate.
Standard seems to even the playing field some for newer players but only if people are willing to invest in the game. However, borrowing decks and playing limited are probably better ideas for most people.
As for me, I try to keep a variety of decks to be able to have a good game against anyone. Unfortunately, this year they fell between two extremes: kids that are just getting into the game vs a brother who just started scoping out tournaments. I don't feel that I kept good matches as well this year but am not able to pick between extremes. I am kind of trying to do both resulting in doing neither.
March 26, 2016 11:37 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #14
I play Magic because winning games makes me happy. I like to know that when I build a good deck and play it well I will win. Meeting a challenge and then succeeding brings out all the good feels.
I recently moved away from my playgroup and discovered that some people at my new job play Magic. They play casually, so I put together a cheap casual reanimator deck that cost me about $20.
I played my deck against them and I won some games, but it didn't make me happy. Why? Because none of my opponents played to win. They lacked the competitive nature that forces people to hone their skills and raise their level of play. Winning games of Magic against someone who isn't trying their best to beat you is a hollow feeling.
I'm not saying I want opponents with pimped out Standard/Modern decks that can crush me on turn 4. All I'm saying is that being obsessed with victory isn't the worst thing that can happen to someone who loves magic. Playing to win and expecting great things from yourself are good qualities for a player to have.
March 26, 2016 11:46 p.m.
What you are describing is the basic evolution of a play group. Just because you have suddenly had competitiveness thrust upon you doesn't mean it's the first time it's happened. My friends got more competitive, and we evolved. You need to as well. Play edh, casual or draft. But do not play standard if you are not a competitive player, because it will not be fun for you.
March 26, 2016 11:50 p.m.
sorry if this is a double post but, another thing that occurred to me is that there is nothing preventing you from building a deck that doesn't cost $300+ and taking it to FNM. Like I said, you don't need the best deck in the world to do good at FNM. If you know what decks your opponents are playing the most (i.e. copying what the pros are playing), then you can always build your deck accordingly based on what you already have. You asked.."So my question is, has the magic community become so obsessed with winning that the only thing that matters is spending money and building expensive decks to play at FNMs?". If you think you have to regularly spend $300+ on your decks, then it sounds more like a personal obsession. No one is forcing you to spend that amount of money on your deck, and it shouldn't matter if others do spend that much. Your only required to spend as much money as your willing. If you want to play the latest deck the pro's are playing and your willing to start from scratch and buy all the cards, then of course it'll be expensive. That's nothing to complain about though as it should be expected since that was your choice. But if you come up with your own ideas from things you have, then the cost can be completely negated at times and minimal at other as you'll have to acquire fewer cards to complete your deck.
So yes of course the magic community is competitive (to a lesser extent at FNM's than at larger events), it's a game, the point is to win, people enjoy winning. Is the community so competitive that you have to regularly spend $300+?? What others are doing shouldn't dictate how much money your willing to spend on magic.
March 27, 2016 12:03 a.m.
I have held my own (but not consistently won all the time) at edh fnm and even against my AEther Vial playset buying brother with decks around $100 but even that can be a lot for people that aren't working or who have competing investments to balance.
I am just reminded of how I got into the game.
In high school, I belonged to a group of gamer geeks and we all identified ourselves with color combos ravnica-style and then heavily traded, playing only with each other.
In college, I had sworn off what threatened to be an obsession so I restricted myself to building decks out of my friends' rejected commons.
When I played mtg as a person with a job out on my own, I stuck with budget (but well thought out and highly synergistic) edh.
Now as I am kind of part of running a club involving mtg (and other games - which is what has mainly been delegated to me), I feel like I should have something standard legal and semi-playable just to keep up and fill my role well.
March 27, 2016 12:18 a.m.
One thing you need to keep in mind is that magic is a competitive game. The entire point of the game is to kill your opponent(s) before he/she/they kill you. Your argument/complaint is basically that some people like winning more than others, and because of this, enjoy building more competitive/expensive decks than others, and that that isn't fair to the game of magic. In short, it's an absolutely rediculous argument.
Some people may like collecting mtg cards more than playing them. Some people may like finding and exploiting weird and inefficient combo's. Some people like playing highly competitive tier one decks within the deck-type/color scheme of our preference (that is most of us), and some people just want to win as consistently as possible by only playing the best deck in the format. There is nothing wrong with any of this. However, implying that people care too much about winning in a game designed to have two outcomes: winning, or losing, doesn't make any sense.
Never forget that the entire point of Magic is to win. You can have fun winning, losing, brewing, and collecting, and I would hope that all players do. After all, it's this that makes magic such a popular game. But the point of magic is to build a good deck and win, and while what you personally want to get out of magic might differ, that isn't debatable.
March 27, 2016 1:40 a.m. Edited.
I like winning so I did play decks like twin before grixis twin was a thing, amulet bloom cause i had most of that stuff since it was first showcase in 2013, and I hopped on that eldrazi train. Now I do like having fun when things start to get stale. I have fun decks like esper mill that can be considered competitive. I also have enchantment prison when i feel like trolling and make my opponent hate the games that we play.
Now there is a certain expectation if you want to play FNM. It's very hard to play certain decks without certain cards. A few examples would be playing white without Path to Exile or blue without Serum Visions. Tarmogoyf is the only exception to this unless you're splashing green. Mono green stompy is a decent, but very linear deck, but doesn't need goyf.
March 27, 2016 2:24 a.m.
WARNING: SOME OF THIS IS RANDOM RAMBLING AS I WROTE THIS AT 4:30 AM but if you decide to read through it I think that it brings up some good points and maybe it could shed some light on a side of the topic that you did not see originally.
So it's funny, originally I read this and read all the comments up to where mine will end up and I originally dismissed it. Not because I thought it was a dumb thread but I did not think that I had anything to say to it, but after some thinking, I realized that I am one of the competitive people that lost their brewing side. Here is my story and my concern for this topic.
Before I start, this is not a dumb thread or a dumb way to think as some people might originally think. People do have issues with this, but its more internally and whether or not it is an issue depends on the person so it makes sense for some people to just dismiss this thread.
Anyway so here is where I stand on this topic. First off, no, it is not at all the job of wizards, starcity, twitch streams, or anyone else other than yourself to make the game brewtastic or fun since fun is subjective. Wizards has a job to create unique interactions to keep people interested in the game but have no obligation to encourage people to brew over net deck. Just the same as Pros have no obligation to brew for the pro tour or at GPs that is all up to the player and it is a choice.
Second, I do not necessarily think that moving towards a competitive mindset is a "natural progression" of either playgroups or the individual player. It CAN be but it is not the same progression for everyone. I know many people that just do not want to be competitive and want to play casually with friends and have been playing for years. It is totally up the player and it is not fair to group all MTG players under one evolutionary theory.
My issue personally is that I was very casual and then moved quickly into becoming competitive because it was fun for me. There is nothing wrong with that and I will not stop being competitive but I did find that I cant just play net decks unless it REALLY appeals to me. Winning appeals to me but playing what i WANT whether or not its a straight net deck is more important to me than winning but that does not mean that I allow it to hamper my ability to win. Yes playing morph "tribal" is fucking hilarious but I will not play it in a tournament.
I started to realize though that I do get bored of being competitive and sometimes I just love building decks. In EDH I love playing GW but I LOVE brewing decks with people. I wont always build them because the decks I want to build, although they are brews, they will end up being good consistent decks and there is nothing wrong with that......or is it?
I play with 1 competitive person and approximately 3 casual edh players on a regular basis. When I build decks I want them to be good and I do want to win and no matter what I end up playing I find the need to make them good and consistent. Now, do not get me wrong it is not a bad thing to want to play a good deck but my casual friends pointed out to me that my decks end up being really similar because I want to play cards and I realized that I was not having fun just playing good decks even though I thought the deck was fun and interesting I ended up just crushing my group and that was not fun. It did NOT make me want to move on to a more competitive group it made me want to play lesser decks that I enjoyed and just play casually with them.
This is where my issue lies. I love being competitive, I also enjoy being casual with my casual friends, NEITHER side is wrong and it would behoove me and everyone to find a balance they feel most comfortable with. That can be being 100% competitive or 100% casual or 50/50 whatever you want but the important thing to remember is that everyone is different and that this is an issue to some people so it is worth respecting and thinking about and really deciding if you have a repressed issue with this as well.
I will also say as a side note that I think FNM's have an issue with being a bit too competitive. I understand it is a tournament it has rules people want to win but some people are too competitive and it deters people from playing the game and that is heartbreaking and something people need to be aware of as they play at FNM. Now do not get me wrong, call out someone when they make a mistake and feel free to not allow people to "take things back" because people should learn to be better magic players and not be babied but do not be aggressive or rude about it or sometimes have some leniency if they are learning the game or just the deck in general and what they are taking back is pretty insignificant because how you react to those mistakes matter and will decide whether they keep playing or not. MTG is a community and people need to remember that and help build it especially at FNM level where IMO it is most important.
Anyway the main jist is this is an important topic and it is important for people to have a balance, no this is not an issue with the game overall or detrimental to the game like OP said, but it is worth talking about and has some implications like at FNM to a lesser degree than what OP made it sound like.
March 27, 2016 5:33 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #21
I mean, fun is relative. Some people have fun winning tournaments and playing the best cards. Others enjoy a more casual approach to the game and play things like EDH. But you have to understand that, regardless the format, lots of people will want the cards you want because a lot of people at the game. Wizards is not your friend, they aim to make money. Now this usually goes hand in hand with new cards and fun mechanics, but at the base, they have a different goal in mind than you.
March 27, 2016 9:21 a.m.
I like a close and fair game where I am "in it" and so is my opponent. I also like mind games and am fascinated by multiplayer politics.
I prefer a losing streak where I consistently got my opponent within bolt range and had a lot of decisions to make over a few short games of crushing my opponent and gaining a reputation for myself.
I greatly dislike aggression. If I get wind of that, I am quick to switch tables.
I don't think competitive tournaments are for me. Luckily while these compose the prominent public face of the game, there are lots of people that play and are not of that mindset.
Just let the people of competitive persuasion enjoy themselves and seek out those of like mind to yourself. They exist even though they call far less attention to themselves and often play outside of fnm. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they made up the majority. They are just harder to find sometimes.
March 27, 2016 12:32 p.m.
I think the real problem at least where I am is that there is only competetive mtg. I've tried multiple times to get casual nights of magic not on FNM nights but no one is interested. People only play their competetive decks and are only interested in playing for prizes not for fun
March 27, 2016 5:08 p.m.
I guess I have had the luck of an exceedingly great game store that runs a few more casual events that get attended, a family that enjoys the game, and a series of work circumstances connected to schools where lots of casual players tend to be around.
Seriously, sometimes finding these people can be as simple as bringing your edh along to a prerelease event and looking for the other people that did the same. Even if you did attend a tournament, I've heard that this kind of thing happens a lot as well.
March 28, 2016 7:08 a.m.
aaron.jacob There's actually a direct causation between winning/succeeding and having high self-confidence, and there are many, many case studies in psychology that go on to prove this. If you are healthy, have a great/fun job, have fun hobbies you enjoy, are talented at what you do, have a great relationship with your partner, etc., you're confidence levels are going to be through the roof.
From this we can assume that if you build an expensive and competitive magic deck, practice it enough to become really good at it, and proceed to crush a few tournaments, you're going to feel great about it and yourself. It honestly just sounds like you're a pissed off fourteen year old who can't afford to buy a real deck.
Second of all, having enough money to buy a deck isn't a talent. A talent is a skill that you excel at. Spending money isn't a skill, it's just something anyone can do. In fact, people who have money tend to be talented at a lot of different things, including their high paying job. On that note, having the money to splurge on magic cards does not at all relate to a persons qualities. Just because someone has the excess money to spend on their hobby doesn't mean they're a douchebag. Seriously, I don't know why you're so angry at life, but getting that mad at people who can afford to put money into a hobby they enjoy is... pathetic, to say the least.
March 28, 2016 12:54 p.m.
Rainnebrooks says... #26
Look... I know this is a topic about your personal problems with the magic community actually liking to play a game and not lose because it's a social game but, let's go on a more serious note. Is the uno competition getting too competitive with their new cards they have? I mean I was there when original uno was still a thing but idk maybe they're getting out of hand too. I mean. How. Do. People. Want. To. Win. In. A. Card. Game. It's unheard of. I mean it's not like the usual 52 card decks have any competitive card games where they use their social skills and the deck against others like poker is really only family friendly. Idk why people are so salty about people wanting to win in any game ever, especially when there's a huge variety of play styles and you guys are even saying that commander and standard are priced similarly at the end of the day when commander doesn't really need updates all the time, and is usually more versatile in who plays. Rant rant rant.
TL:DR and Other stuff
- Get a commander deck if you want to stop spending so much money every few months, or another play style, or play online.
- Standard is a competitive playstyle, with judges and winnings, and everything at events.
- You can win money with these cards it so of course it costs money to get it costs money to print all these cards and hire artists and work on lore.
- Play pokemon or yu-gi-oh if none of these work for you. You choose your environment in playing this game, and who you play against. Don't blame the company who doesn't even price cards.( = v = )
March 28, 2016 9:51 p.m.
Rainnebrooks says... #28
aaron.jacob actually they tell you to go play checkers or play with people that aren't as competitive because they play to win because it's a fucking game where there's a winnner.
March 28, 2016 11:04 p.m.
Rainnebrooks says... #29
aaron.jacob Coolio, then maybe you'll grab a better attitude. I'm a fucking filthy casual so yeah I need my fuckin feet washed.
I am teh gods all praise me.
March 29, 2016 12:33 a.m.
Rainnebrooks says... #30
It's a good thing you stopped well off at tier 3 then, goodnight.
March 29, 2016 12:51 a.m.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH k, this has gotten a little to much off the beaten track, imma just say right here and now, please no more comments that are not a) constructive, b) a personal opinion that has to do with the subject, or c) not written by Rainnebrooks or aaron.jacob. :P
VampireArmy says... #2
"shouldn't The Makers be more focused on letting the magic community having fun, not just enticing them to spend more money?"
No. They are a company. Making money is first and foremost.
March 26, 2016 11:07 p.m.