Rules Challenge - Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Suppression Field

Asked by RussischerZar 6 years ago

My opponent controls Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Suppression Field .

  1. How much mana would I have to pay to cast an Archive Trap if the opponent searched his library this turn?
  2. How much mana would I have to pay to cast a kicked Into the Roil imprinted on an Isochron Scepter ? Would that even be legal?
  3. How much mana would I have to pay to suspend a Lotus Bloom and then cast it after the last time counter has been removed?

apt142 says... #1

"How much mana would I have to pay to cast a kicked Into the Roil imprinted on an Isochron Scepter ? Would that even be legal?"

Yes. The kicker is an optional cost however. So, you'd do 2 colorless Tap Iso, get the base spell and then have to pay another U1 to get the kicker to go into effect.

It would just cost you the U3 to get it going. The spell is free and the kicker is not an activated ability but rather an additional (optional) cost.

I believe free casting trumps the cost increases.

March 8, 2013 12:34 p.m.

Goody says... #2

  1. 1 colorless mana.
  2. 5 and one U. Yes, it would be legal.
  3. 2 to suspend, 0 to cast.
March 8, 2013 12:38 p.m.

Goody says... #3

To clarify the second scenario, you'd pay 4 for the Isochron Scepter activation, and then 1U for the kicker cost.

March 8, 2013 12:39 p.m.

cartwheelnurd says... #4

1: You are still casting the spell, so I assume it would cost you 1 mana, because instead of the 3UU casting cost you pay 0, but thalia still increases it by 1.

2: It would cost you four mana to activate the isochrn scepter, then two mana to kick into the roil. It is plenty legal because you pay it as you cast the spell, and you are casting the spell for free. The total cost to play into the roil would be 5U. apt142 i believe is mistaken here.

3: Suspend is not an activated ability or an ability at all, for that matter. It would still cost you 0 to suspend it. However, after the suspend ends, you still have to cast it, but i don;t think you will have to pay 1 for it, because you aren;t paying its mana cost, so even if the mana cost is increased by 1, you don't pay it. The same is true for question #2.

I may be wrong about casting the suspended card, so someone can correct me if I am.

March 8, 2013 12:48 p.m.

ScarrFisH says... #5

  1. One colorless.
  2. Illegal to kick from isochron, but to activate, would cost 4 colorless, then 1 to cast the copy for thalia.
  3. two colorless to suspend, 1 to cast on entry, none to activate.
March 8, 2013 12:56 p.m.

apt142 says... #6

I missed the 2 additional colorless to activate the scepter. You are correct. It would be 4 to scepter, 1 blue, 1 colorless to kick.

March 8, 2013 12:56 p.m.

RussischerZar says... #7

No complete & correct answer yet.

March 8, 2013 12:59 p.m.

apt142 says... #8

Suspending is not an activated ability nor a casting. You'd pay 0 to suspend the lotus. And you just don't pay it's mana cost when it comes in. So, it remains unaffected by the above cards.

March 8, 2013 1 p.m.

Goody says... #9

Looking back on the rulings, I know I'm wrong, but I won't say quite how so that other people get to try.

March 8, 2013 1 p.m.

cartwheelnurd says... #10

@Goody for #3, you don;t have to pay 2 to suspend it. Suspend is not an activated ability.

From the Comprehensive Rules:

702.60a Suspend is a keyword that represents three abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with suspend is in a players hand. The second and third are triggered abilities that function in the exile zone. Suspend N[cost] means If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack from your hand, you may pay [cost] and exile it with N time counters on it. This action doesnt use the stack, and At the beginning of your upkeep, if this card is suspended, remove a time counter from it, and When the last time counter is removed from this card, if its exiled, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you cant, it remains exiled. If you cast a creature spell this way, it gains haste until you lose control of the spell or the permanent it becomes.

So suspend is a static ability. You don;t have to pay the extra 2 to suspend the lotus bloom.

@ScarrFisH: It is legal to kick from the isochron scepter. YOu are casting it, and kicker says you may pay it while you cast the card.

You don't pay the spell's mana cost. If the spell has X in its mana cost, X is 0. You do pay any additional costs for that spell. You can't use any alternative costs.

Here is a ruling from gatherer on isochron scepter. You may pay any additional costs for the spell, so you can pay the kicker.

March 8, 2013 1:02 p.m.

apt142 says... #11

  1. 0 colorless mana. Archive is a replacement cost.
  2. 4 to activate sceptor, 1 and U to kick. Yes Legal
  3. 0 to suspend, And it comes into play without paying casting costs.
March 8, 2013 1:06 p.m.

mafteechr says... Accepted answer #12

  1. 1 colorless
  2. 4 colorless to activate Scepter, 1 colorless to cast Roil, 1 colorless 1 blue for kicker
  3. 0 to suspend, 1 colorless to cast
March 8, 2013 1:10 p.m.

Goody says... #13

  1. 1 colorless.
  2. 6U - 4 to activate, 1 to cast the copy, 1U to kick.
  3. 1 to cast the spell.
March 8, 2013 1:10 p.m.

cartwheelnurd says... #14

close. Here's a ruling from gatherer:

10/1/2009 Effects that increase or reduce the cost to cast a Trap will apply to whichever cost you chose to pay.

So even if you pay 0 you still have to pay the extra 1 to cast the trap.

March 8, 2013 1:12 p.m.

Chubbub says... #15

  1. 0 colorless because it replaces the original cost
  2. 4 to activate Scepter, free to cast, and 3colorless, 1u to kick. Yes legal.
  3. 0 to suspend, 0 to play because you don't ever actually cast it.
March 8, 2013 1:14 p.m.

linkofhyrule says... #16

  1. You would cast Archive Trap for (1).
  2. You would pay (4) to activate Isochron Scepter's ability, then (1)(u) for Into the Roil's kicker, and (1) for casting the copy due to Thalia. Yes, this is legal.
  3. You would pay (2) to Suspend Lotus Bloom, and (1) to cast it on the last counter removal.

Reasoning: You pay one alternate casting cost (free on the copied Roil and Bloom), plus any additional/minus any reduction costs. It's what allows a kicker on a Isochron'd spell, even though it's "for free".

March 8, 2013 1:15 p.m.

linkofhyrule says... #17

correction to 3.: You pay (0) to Suspend, and (1) on last counter removal, as you cast it then.

March 8, 2013 1:18 p.m.

Chubbub says... #18

Correction to #1: 1 colorless, not 0 colorless., and Correction to #2: 1 to cast, because I just realized play=cast.

March 8, 2013 1:23 p.m.

RussischerZar says... #19

mafteechr is the first one to provide the complete and correct answer. :)

  1. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben increases the cost from 0 to 1. So (1) in total.
  2. Thalia increases the cost from nothing to 1, kicker can be paid. So (6U) in total.
  3. Suspend is not an activated ability, thus it's cost will not be increased. Still, good ol' Thalia will increase the mana cost from the actual casting from nothing to 1. So (1) in total.
March 8, 2013 1:28 p.m.

Goody says... #20

I posted my correct answer seconds after him haha

Good challenge

March 8, 2013 1:37 p.m.

Rayenous says... #21

...For #2...

After paying the 4 to activate the sceptre...

Does it not work that Thalia increases the cost of the spell from 1U to 2U, then you get to play it for 0? .... then you pay the additional kicker, making it 5U total, not 6U?

Unlike 1 and 3, the cost isn't 0, and then increased to 1.... increasing the cost is not the same as adding an additional cost... in this case the cost is 1U, increased to 2U, then playable without paying.

After all, there is the rule of "When determining a spell's total cost, effects that increase the cost are applied before effects that reduce the cost.", so Thalia should increase the cost before the "without paying it's mana cost" is applied.

March 8, 2013 2:12 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #22

"Without paying its mana cost" isn't a cost decreaser, it's an alternative cost. Alternative costs are always applied first.

March 8, 2013 2:25 p.m.

Rayenous says... #23

I've been looking through the rules... still can't find where the 'alternate' cost of "without paying the mana cost" is the same as an 'alternate' cost of "pay 0".

If I'm told I don't have to pay for a coffee, and then find out they increase the price of coffee by $0.50.... I still don't pay for the coffee. The "do not pay", trumps any increases or decreases.

I can take your word for it at this point, but neither logic, nor the rules (that I have been able to find) show this to be the case.

March 8, 2013 3:30 p.m.

mafteechr says... #24

@Rayenous

117.9. Some spells have alternative costs. An alternative cost is a cost listed in a spell's text, or applied to it from another effect, that its controller may pay rather than paying the spell's mana cost. Alternative costs are usually phrased, "You may [action] rather than pay [this object's] mana cost," or "You may cast [this object] without paying its mana cost."

117.9d If an alternative cost is being paid to cast a spell, any additional costs, cost increases, and cost reductions that affect that spell are applied to that alternative cost.

March 8, 2013 4:08 p.m.

Absinthman says... #25

Got online too late to post, but it's a really nice challenge!

March 8, 2013 4:22 p.m.

This discussion has been closed