Optional Loop Involving Multiple Players
Asked by chosenone124 9 years ago
I'm playing in a three way game, and two of my opponents have It That Betrays out.
I play Transguild Promenade and sacrifice it. Let's say neither of my opponents wants to pay that cost but are both able to do so. Who has to pay? Or does the game just draw.
Btw Gatherer text says this:
"If the sacrificed permanent that caused the second ability to trigger somehow leaves the graveyard before the ability resolves (possibly because it was returned to the battlefield by the ability of another It That Betrays), the ability simply won't do anything when it resolves."
February 29, 2016 12:48 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... Accepted answer #3
The initial triggers resolve in APNAP order. For multiplayer games, that means the abilities go on the stack in turn order starting with the active player, then resolve reverse that order. Let's assume you are player 1, and then Opponent 2, then Opponent 3 in that turn order.
Since your opponents both have It That Betrays, both of their abilities will trigger off you sacc'ing the Transguild Promenade. Opponent 3's ability will resolve first, giving him the Transguild Promenade. He chooses to Sac it, thus giving it to Opponent 2, rinsing and repeating between the two of them, effectively stalling the game
This rule stops such things from happening:
716.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
Since Opponent 2 is next in the turn order, once he has taken the Transguild Promenade from Opponent 3 for the second time, he Must pay the cost if able. He cannot continue this "infinite loop". If he cannot pay the cost, then Opponent 3 must pay the cost the second time he gets the Transguild Promenade.
If neither are able to pay the cost, then this turns into a mandatory infinite loop and the game ends up being a draw.
February 29, 2016 1:20 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #4
Opponent 3 receives Promenade twice before Opponent 2 receives it twice though (albeit from different players).
February 29, 2016 1:42 a.m.
Learn something new every day...APNAP and reversed resolving order, logging those away.
February 29, 2016 1:43 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
True.
Minor Correction: If opponent 3 gets it a third time, he must pay the cost if able. Otherwise, Opponent 2 must pay the cost the second time he gets the land.
February 29, 2016 1:45 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #7
GearNoir it's worth remembering for sure. If you ever play against a Warp World deck in a multiplayer game, you'll be happy you know these things. Lol. Triggers everywhere.
February 29, 2016 1:50 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #8
Also worth noting, GearNoir, that the first player to put their triggers on the stack will not know what the targets are, if any, for the rest of the abilities controlled by the other players since targets aren't chosen until the ability is put onto the stack.
Likewise, the last player to put their abilities on the stack will know what all the targets are and can make his targets accordingly.
February 29, 2016 2:11 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #9
Out of curiosity, what if player 1 has an instant that can stop the loop in hand?
Who is responsible for stopping the loop?
February 29, 2016 4:03 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #10
You are still technically not part of the loop so you do not have the responsibility of stopping it. The responsibility falls under the ruling I gave on an earlier post where Opponent 2 must pay the cost if able, and if not, Opponent 3 must do so. They are responsible for stopping the "loop".
Even if they are both unable to pay the cost of keeping the land in play, you are still not forced to cast the instant (Say, Boomerang). You have the choice at this point to either let the game become a draw, or respond to whichever trigger you wish with your Boomerang, thus stopping the mandatory loop and resuming the game.
February 29, 2016 4:25 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
A player is only required to stop a loop if it can be done by making a different choice inside the loop. Possible plays/choices involving objects outside the loop aren't considered at all.
GearNoir says... #1
No one has to pay it if they don't wish to. I would assume play order determines the "rights" to the card. The person who owns the second Betray simply has it resolve to no effect since the card is no longer in the graveyard.
It simply comes into play for the first person in the play order that has Betray out, they pay or do nothing, at which point it stays with them or is sacrificed again and passes to the next person with Betray out.
February 29, 2016 12:45 a.m.