does Deathtouch count as lethal damage for trample?
Asked by Kalani 14 years ago
example scenario: an attacking Abyssal Persecutor is equipped with a Basilisk Collar . he is blocked by some big flyer, let's say deck:thopter-assembly... does the persecutor deal 1 trample to the opponent or a full 5 after the 1 deathtouch to the assembly??
Deathtouch and Trample are kind of sick together. The Abyssal Persecutor will do lethal damage to the deck:thopter-assembly, And since it has deathtouch, any nonzero damage it deals is considered lethal, so one damage goes to the deck:thopter-assembly and 5 straight to their face
March 29, 2011 8:27 a.m.
Dracog Is correct. Since damage is dealt all in one step during M10 they changed the ruling of deathtouch to any non-zero damage is considered lethal damage. Trample's ruling says that you have to assign lethal damage to each blocking creature before you can assign damage to a player.
Therefore, yes you can assign 1 damage to the blocker and 5 to the player.
March 29, 2011 8:39 a.m.
π_is_the_word says... #4
All damage happens at the same time. As such, deck:thopter-assembly takes 5 damage because its toughness is 5 then the other 1 damage goes through as trample damage to the player under attack.
119.4. Damage is processed in a three-part sequence.
119.4a First, damage is dealt, as modified by replacement and prevention effects that interact with damage. (See rule 614, Replacement Effects, and rule 615, Prevention Effects.) Abilities that trigger when damage is dealt trigger now and wait to be put on the stack.
119.4b Next, damage thats been dealt is transformed into its results, as modified by replacement effects that interact with those results (such as life loss or counters).
119.4c Finally, the damage event occurs
119.5. Damage dealt to a creature or planeswalker doesnt destroy it. Likewise, the source of that damage doesnt destroy it. Rather, state-based actions may destroy a creature or planeswalker, or otherwise put it into its owners graveyard, due to the results of the damage dealt to that permanent. See rule 704. Example: A player casts Lightning Bolt, an instant that says Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player, targeting a 2/2 creature. After Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to that creature, the creature is destroyed as a state-based action. Neither Lightning Bolt nor the damage dealt by Lightning Bolt destroyed that creature.119.6. Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.11, Regenerate) and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).
March 29, 2011 9:48 a.m.
I am correct:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness.
March 29, 2011 10:03 a.m.
I am correct:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness.
March 29, 2011 10:03 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
What Dracog says is correct, and his quote from 702.2b is the proper rules justification for it.
March 29, 2011 10:30 a.m.
π_is_the_word says... #8
That rule is on what happens with death touch not about damage assignment which is what my rules discuss. What the rules I have quoted say is that you first must assign all 6 damage to the target creature deck:thopter-assembly then Deathtouch and Lifelink happen and 1 damage tramples over because all damage happens at the same time. In this case 1 damage goes to the opponent because the deck:thopter-assembly is assigned 6 damage and it can take only 5. 6-5=1.
Your rule is helpful, but is irrelevant for how much damage the opponent takes.
March 29, 2011 11:01 a.m.
sounds like we need a judge, both points sound fairly valid to me. trample says you must assign lethal dmg, 1 point of dmg is lethal. On the other hand that seems a little odd that you can choose to assign 1 dmg to a single blocker.
March 29, 2011 11:40 a.m.
π_is_the_word says... #10
You must declare all damage to the blocker, that is how damage works, if the opponent had assigned 2 blockers you may assign 1 damage to the deck:thopter-assembly and the rest of the damage to the other blocker, but you cannot assign 1 damage to each blocker and the rest of the damage to the opponent, after all your opponent declared blockers. Damage must all go to blocker(s) and any extra damage goes through to opponent due to trample.
But, in this given example with just deck:thopter-assembly assigned as a blocker, Lethal Damage would also cause the state based action of deck:thopter-assembly to be put into the graveyard, not just Deathtouch.
March 29, 2011 12:50 p.m.
kevster999 says... #11
TT is the word is right. Deathtouch does not count as lethal damage until damage is dealt. So the Abyssal Persecutor equipped with Basilisk Collar will deal 5 damage to the deck:thopter-assembly and 1 damage to you. Here's a nifty Mtg Salvation Cranial Insertion where I got it from. Its the very first question. http://mtgsalvation.com/1105-cranial-insertion-the-calm-before-the-storm.html
March 29, 2011 1:17 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #12
Yes, that's exactly what I've been trying to say. Thank you kevster999.
March 29, 2011 1:42 p.m.
is the word is correct
Trample just says that if attacking creature A has more power the defending creature B's toughness the remaining damage then goes over the the player/planeswalker
March 29, 2011 2:51 p.m.
sooo by that I mean the trample just checks a creatures toughness
March 29, 2011 2:53 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
kevster999, the Cranial Insertion article you cite is from before the rules change that made deathtouch function differently. It was the correct answer at the time, when deathtouch was still a triggered ability instead of a static one, but now that answer is incorrect.
π_is_the_word, that's not how damage assignment with trample works. You don't assign all damage to the blocker and then have extra damage "trample over". As described in the quote below from the Comprehensive Rules about trample (702.17b), you must assign at least lethal damage to all the blockers, and then you assign the rest to the player/planeswalker. The only abilities and effects that are ignored during assignments are those that would change how much damage would be dealt (like from Furnace of Rath or Lymph Sliver ).
The quote from the Comprehensive Rules that Dracog posted above about deathtouch (702.2b) clearly says that any nonzero amount of assigned combat damage from a creature with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of the blocking creature's toughness. That means 1 damage to a blocker and the rest to the player/planeswalker is a legal combat damage assignment from a trampling deathtoucher.
702.17b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures thats being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt. The attacking creatures controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case cant assign any damage to the player or planeswalker its attacking.
March 29, 2011 3:43 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #16
If you don't want to take my word for it, please reference the following quote from the entry for deathtouch in the official M11 FAQ:
http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/EN_MTGM11_FAQ_20100702.doc
If an attacking creature with deathtouch and trample becomes blocked, the attacking creature first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. However, since the creature has deathtouch, assigning even 1 damage to a creature is considered to be lethal damage.
Example: Yavimaya Wurm (a 6/4 creature with trample) is equipped with Gorgon Flail (an Equipment that grants the equipped creature +1/+1 and deathtouch). It attacks a player and is blocked by Siege Mastodon (a 3/5 creature). Yavimaya Wurm must assign at least 1 damage to the Mastodon. Its remaining damage may be assigned as its controller chooses between the Mastodon and the defending player. Notably, the Wurm may assign 1 damage to the Mastodon and 6 damage to the defending player. After that damage is dealt to the Mastodon, the Mastodon will be destroyed.
March 29, 2011 3:48 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #17
510.1c A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage.
If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature.
If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it cant assign combat damage to a creature thats blocking it unless each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures thats being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt. An amount of damage thats greater than a creatures lethal damage may be assigned to it.
Please, stop arguing already, this is something you should know before you attempt to answer questions.
And for those of you not sure what the heck the pi symbol in my screen name is it is "Pi_is_the_word" thank you everyone who has supported me. If someone can make a valid argument against this rule please say it. If you can't then please no more Irrelevant arguments! I hate it when people do not think about how there words are read, I've been offended by the tone used by everyone and I myself have used a tone I try not to use.
To those whom I might have offended I apologize to you, and to the poor soul who wanted a simple question answered, this is the correct answer.
March 29, 2011 4:19 p.m.
TheMission260907 says... #18
I've done some research on this and I have to side with TT, even though assigning a single "lethal damage" to each blocker, then having the rest trample through would be awesome (and in fact WAS so awesome that the rules changed with M10, potentially to prevent exploitation).
Dracog was correct before M10, but since then the rules have changed so that Deathtouch is now a static ability rather than a triggered one. This means that when a creature is dealt damage by a deathtoucher, the effect isn't checked until damage is dealt, so the trample rules for assigning damage still apply because damage assignation takes place before damage is dealt.
To be clear, trample requires an attacker to assign damage equal to a blocker's toughness (enough damage to be lethal under normal circumstances, and therefore called "lethal damage") before it can damage a player. Deathtouch does not alter the trample rules.
It would be handy if the rulings were more specific with their definitions of "lethal damage" though, to be honest.
The ruling does make sense though, if you think of it as deathtouch killing with some toxic effect: even if the blocker dies instantly, you still can't go through the blocker's body and hit the player behind unless you've actually pummelled the corpse out of the way with the same attack; a process that would logically require damage equal to the creature's toughness to perform.
March 29, 2011 4:20 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #19
I just spent 40 minutes responding to your response Rhadamanthus. Very painful.
March 29, 2011 4:23 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
510.1c is only relevant in a situation where the attacking creature does not have trample. Please reference the above quoted rule about assigning damage from an attacking creature with trample, 702.17b. Also please reference the above quoted official M11 FAQ entry on how deathtouch interacts with trample during damage assignment. If you're not convinced by the official rules and an official document published by the Magic Rules Manager, then I don't know what to tell you. I hope the person asking the original question is able to get the correct answer out of this discussion.
March 29, 2011 4:31 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #21
604.7. Unlike spells and other kinds of abilities, static abilities cant use an objects last known information for purposes of determining how their effects are applied.
You can't use the Abyssal Persecutor 's last known information that it had deathtouch when assigning damage. You must assign 5 damage to the Assembly.
March 29, 2011 4:39 p.m.
- If a creature (whether it has deathtouch or not) blocks or is blocked by multiple creatures, those creatures must be put into damage assignment order during the declare blockers step. The creature then assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. It can't assign combat damage to one of those creatures unless each creature that precedes that creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. If a creature with deathtouch blocks or is blocked by multiple creatures, everything works exactly the same way with one exception: assigning even 1 of that creature's damage to a creature is considered to be lethal damage.
Example: The damage assignment order of an attacking Acidic Slime (a 2/2 creature with deathtouch) is Spined Wurm (a 5/4 creature) then Siege Mastodon (a 3/5 creature) then Runeclaw Bear (a 2/2 creature). Acidic Slime can assign 1 damage to the Wurm and 1 damage to the Mastodon, or 2 damage to the Wurm. It can't assign damage to the Bear. Each creature Acidic Slime deals damage to is destroyed.
- If an attacking creature with deathtouch and trample becomes blocked, the attacking creature first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. However, since the creature has deathtouch, assigning even 1 damage to a creature is considered to be lethal damage.
Example: Yavimaya Wurm (a 6/4 creature with trample) is equipped with Gorgon Flail (an Equipment that grants the equipped creature +1/+1 and deathtouch). It attacks a player and is blocked by Siege Mastodon (a 3/5 creature). Yavimaya Wurm must assign at least 1 damage to the Mastodon. Its remaining damage may be assigned as its controller chooses between the Mastodon and the defending player. Notably, the Wurm may assign 1 damage to the Mastodon and 6 damage to the defending player. After that damage is dealt to the Mastodon, the Mastodon will be destroyed.
Straight from the Comprehensive rules. After the M11 Update. That was painful.
March 29, 2011 4:55 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #23
π_is_the_word, it is incorrect to apply LKI in this situation. LKI is only used when the object in question has changed zones between creating an effect and having that effect being applied. Abyssal Persecutor does not change zones between assigning and dealing combat damage, so any comments regarding LKI are irrelevant.
Dracog is again correct here, and has posted information from the official M11 FAQ published after the rules about deathtouched changed (including the paragraph I quoted in my post above).
March 29, 2011 5:08 p.m.
I have to agree with Dracog and Rhadamanthus on this one. The question is hard to answer because of ruling changes with the M11 update but I know that you have to only assign 1 damage to a creature for it to be lethal if the attacking creature has deathtouch and that trample only asks for lethal which would be 1 before moving to the next creature/player.
March 29, 2011 5:10 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #26
Yep, you got it, I just saw the article, I do find this counterintuitive and it needed to have been quoted earlier, but I'm always okay with being wrong if proper explanation is given. I'm tired, will be working on my newest deck deck:going-commando. This would never have gone on this long if proper respectful language had been used from the start. I apologize for my language, but you guys need to read your language again please, even normal language can come off as offensive in text form:
"Dracog says...10:03 a.m. on March 29, 2011 #5
I am correct:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness."
Please think through language use, I appreciate passion, but that was the wrong way to state your message, I might have agreed with you then, if you had stated your point differently.
March 29, 2011 5:18 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #27
You guys need to give me time to respond, I made sure I had stated everything that needed to be stated, which took me over 15 minutes. Have fun with your flying, trample, Deathtoucher. :P
March 29, 2011 5:21 p.m.
TheMission260907 says... #28
------EDIT-------
Rhadamanthus, your cited article (specifically the download one) may be out of date, (I note that it was last edited July 2010). Regardless, looking on the current Wizards rulings,
(http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules) under "Comprehensive Rules")
which were last updated Feb 2011, reveals this information:
702.17b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures thats being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt. The attacking creatures controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case cant assign any damage to the player or planeswalker its attacking.
------in conjunction with-----------
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creatures toughness.
Initially, this sounds as though any non-zero amount of damage is lethal and by all means trample away, but consider the trample rule which dictates that it ignores "any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt"
In that light, Deathtouch should be considered as an effect that changes the amount of damage actually dealt, for the reason that, "any nonzero amount of combat damage ... is considered to be lethal damage regardless of that creatures toughness". Therefore, if damage with deathtouch is considered lethal even when it would not normally be, this means that the damage actually dealt has been changed. As such, this does not constitute lethal damage for the purposes of trample unless the damage dealt would be lethal without the effects of deathtouch.
Adding to this argument is the fact that, "The attacking creatures controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case cant assign any damage to the player or planeswalker its attacking." Meaning that if you don't assign lethal damage (ignoring effects that change the damage actually dealt), you may not deal damage to a player using the effects of trample.
To be clear here also, I don't mean this to offend anyone, my discussion is purely in the interest of having things clarified. If I'm wrong, at least I'll know. ;D
March 29, 2011 5:45 p.m.
Pi, I'm sure no one meant anything by what they were saying. Using direct language is part of debate. Now if they would have said "Pi is wrong and a terrible person for having that point of view" I'd understand but just stating your opinion bluntly has nothing to do with trying to offend people.
March 29, 2011 5:47 p.m.
I think "any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt" is talking about prevention or additional. Not entirely sure about that... but deathtouch doesn't actually modify the amount of dmg done so I think it wouldn't be listed under that. If one point of dmg is considered lethal then it seems like you should be able to assign one dmg and trample the rest.
March 29, 2011 5:53 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #31
Read the section after the picture of the Grave Titan :
March 29, 2011 6:16 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #32
There it is, super-recent and everything. Nice catch, Pi.
The way to think of it, I think, is that while it's true combat damage and trample don't take other abilities or whatnot into account when they're assigning damage, deathtouch doesn't really deal with them. It changes the basic rules about a creature's damage and what counts as lethal, so by the time trample and combat damage are looking at things, all they see is lethal.
Basically, they go "Have I assigned lethal damage to this chump?" And because deathtouch changes the rules for that creature, they now can go "Have I assigned at least one damage do this chump?" instead.
March 29, 2011 6:29 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #33
@eze01 I know no one meant anything by their responses but, the way things are read by people can be very different than they way they are meant.
When answering, people should say that they disagree, in a non-direct way, and then give cited rulings to support their claims. It just takes 1 statement being written in a form which can be read offensively for something like what has happened here to take place. The quote I have given is an excellent example of someone not being careful about their wording.
Starting out with a statement "I am correct" is confrontational, you are accusing the other person of being wrong even if you do not intend to say 'you are wrong.' When you start out with this statement the rest of the response will be misread. Additionally, when making an argument you need to supply an explanation to go with a stated rule, there was no explanation and only 1 given rule, when the question involves the interaction between 2 abilities.
I hope you all understand I'm trying to prevent this sort of monster sized stream of answers from happening again, so please try and put yourself in the shoes of the person you are send your message to and review your language.
This is my last response to this annoying thread.
Thanks, π_is_the_word.
March 29, 2011 6:40 p.m.
TimProctor says... #34
I stopped reading after it started going back and forth.
This actually comes up quite a bit and Dracog is correct.
MTGO operates with it functioning exactly the way it was described. 1 is considered lethal damage, trample counts lethal and then carries over.
Here is a link for a time when I answered it.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/blightsteel-colossus-vs-acidic-slime/
March 29, 2011 6:59 p.m.
pi is 100% right. btw
its because of the steps. and when the blockers and attackers are lined up. they MUST assign damage equal to their power.
510.1a Each attacking creature and each blocking creature assigns combat damage equal to its power. Creatures that would assign 0 or less damage this way don't assign combat damage at all.
so there is no way to assign 1 to the creature :(
then the deathtouch ability.the deathtouch ability uses what is refereed to as "the stack". this is a break down of each step. this the order of the steps for damage being dealt.
510.2. Second, all combat damage that's been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt. This is a change from previous rules.Example: Suntail Hawk (a 1/1 creature with flying) and Goblin Piker (a 2/1 creature) are attacking. Mogg Fanatic (a 1/1 creature with the ability "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic: Mogg Fanatic deals 1 damage to target creature or player) blocks the Goblin Piker. The defending player sacrifices Mogg Fanatic during the declare blockers step to deal 1 damage to the Suntail Hawk. The Hawk is destroyed. The Piker deals and is dealt no combat damage this turn. If the defending player instead left Mogg Fanatic on the battlefield, the Fanatic and the Piker would have dealt lethal damage to one another, but the Suntail Hawk couldn't have been dealt damage.
510.3. Third, any abilities that triggered on damage being assigned or dealt go on the stack. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
and the deathtouch effect requires the next state based action. also which is what 510.3 is...
702.2c A creature with toughness greater than 0 that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. See rule 704.
March 29, 2011 7:05 p.m.
Pi is the word, don't start flaming people. I am just as busy as you are, and don't have much time to post. You questioned a specific part of my answer, and that post had relevance to that.To all, the article I posted is from the POST M11 Set rules on deathtouch and they are correct.
March 29, 2011 7:12 p.m.
Tetsuo, that is correct for a creature WITHOUT trample, but trample changes the rules and when combined with deathtouch, you get the results I have stated many timse
March 29, 2011 7:16 p.m.
TimProctor says... #38
The following link specifically incorporates the 2011 rule changes and 100% solidifies the answers. It is straight from the horse's mouth on this one folks.
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2083/~/deathtouch
Also here is another one from Wizards which was answered by lvl 3 judges.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27174365/Trample__Deathtouch&post_num=14
March 29, 2011 7:24 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #39
Okay, that's the fourth or fifth recent article we've found citing the rules as such. This book is closed - deathtouch works great with trample.
I think this thread should now just be walked away from so everyone can let their bad feelings stew away. It's really not that big of a deal, we've all just got ruffled feathers which makes things seem more important than they are.
March 29, 2011 7:40 p.m.
Wow, what a cluster f&&k.
This was a good question, but we know the answer now. Assign 1 point of damage, the rest goes to player.
Move on fellows.
March 29, 2011 7:45 p.m.
π_is_the_word says... #41
Lol, I don't hold a grudge, I was calm when I posted the Link to an article on the M11 rules change. You guys might be upset, but I'm fine with being wrong.
March 29, 2011 10:09 p.m.
TheMission260907 says... #43
I have to say I'm glad about the ruling. More fun. I'll be watching trample-fatties more closely in the future, lol.
Good reading Pi. :D
March 30, 2011 6:11 a.m.
kevster999 says... #44
Ho Ho, silly me. Turns out the others are right Pi. Me and you are wrong. Thats just weird. i didn't realize the rules changed again in m11. whoops. Thanks for the heads up Rhadamanthus
March 30, 2011 1:57 p.m.
good discussion in this question. i really had no idea it worked that way and seems counter intuitive that it overrides turn rules but after researching yeah its there on the wizards site. crazy combo. its got me thinking about building a g/b deck.
March 30, 2011 2:05 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #47
Only Kalani or the mods can choose the answer.
As for why they haven't yet, I don't know. =p
March 30, 2011 5:33 p.m.
Touche sir lol. After all the pain of proving that, I think I should at least get the accepted answer.
March 30, 2011 7:01 p.m.
Honestly I would mark it, what should I mark. No time to read all of it.
March 31, 2011 12:19 a.m.
I'd say post 2 if any. It's a giant mess of a thread to be honest.
March 31, 2011 12:26 a.m.
To simplify things, I'll try to summarize it into one last post:
For trample to work, the blockers must be assigned lethal damage, and the rest of the damage "tramples" over to the defending player/plainswalker. And since the creature has deathtouch, any non-zero amount of damage it deals is considered lethal:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness
So a creature with deathtouch and trample must deal at least 1 damage to each creature blocking it, and the rest will trample over.
March 31, 2011 12:35 a.m.
I posted them both, and post #53 I tried to summarize everything so that there wouldn't be any more questions. I can't believe it took that long lol..
March 31, 2011 12:46 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #55
90% of this was ruffled feathers, misinterpretations and some bruised egos. The other, identical thread (Kalani accidentally double-posted this question) we wrapped up in 4 or 5 posts. The rest of the 14 were actually random discussion, including talking about THIS thread. =p
March 31, 2011 12:52 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #56
...and, you know, just to be safe and make sure I'm not ruffling any feathers: That wasn't an insult or anything. This sort of stuff happens on the internet, something gets misread or a tone gets misunderstood and we're off to the races. Everyone's fine in the end. I was just saying the other thread was lucky enough to not have that happen to it, and pointing out that this was, indeed, not this complicated of a question to sort out.
March 31, 2011 1 a.m.
i'm just too lazy to look this sh%& up myself and you all are so willing to help me out so nicely :D
March 31, 2011 3:45 a.m.
Its all good. Things just got blown out of proportions. No need to sweat it Kalani
March 31, 2011 9:48 a.m.
Wow, I know I'm really late to this thread, but I hate to be the bearer of bad news, I've seen this very issue come into play at a local FNM and had not one, or two, but THREE sanctioned DCI judges agree that Dacog, MagnorCriol and all those who agreed with them are wrong. The way it was explained that night is that "Deathtouch is a status effect, and won't check to see if enough damage has been done to activate until after damage is dealt. So essencially, the damage assignment process isn't aware deathtouch is going to happen. Thus, for trample purposes, lethal damage is damage equal to the creatures toughness, not 1."
December 9, 2011 5:30 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #61
Those judges ruled incorrectly, and the reasoning they gave was not valid. The rule Dracog quoted is specifically from the rules about the deathtouch keyword ability, and it is the reason his position is the correct one. Here it is again, for reference:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness.
1 damage is a nonzero amount, so 1 damage from a source with deathtouch satisfies the requirement for lethal damage in trample damage assignment, detailed in the following rule (from the rules about the trample keyword ability):
702.18b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. The attacking creature's controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can't assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it's attacking.
Lexis136 says... #1
combat is handled normally trample included.
at the end of combat, if the thopter is still alive, then deathtouch kills it.
March 29, 2011 6:47 a.m.