Can I activate Penance any time I want?
Asked by CommanderFun 11 years ago
This is a question I've been trying to get an answer from Google for a while now...
- Can I activate Penance just to put cards on top of my library (even if no "source" actually deals damage)? If so, can I do this at any time (even during my end step before I discard)?
Essentially, all I want to do is "activate" the ability! I don't care to actually prevent any damage. I just want to use Penance to put cards in my hand back on top of my library.
Here is a thread where people seem to say this is possible:http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=416326
However, I've seen lots of threads that seem to argue the opposite! so I thought I'd pose my question here!
CommanderFun says... #2
Not sure why it changed font size up there during the actual question...
Anyway, I tried to keep it brief in the initial posting. here are some more "details" about the question:
Hidden Retreat specifies a "target", so I am quite sure it would not work for what I want to do. Penance simply states "a source of your choice", leading me to think I can choose nothing, and the ability ends up doing nothing (even though I paid the cost) or if I have to choose something, it doesn't have to necessarily end up dealing me damage. Even more, if I HAVE to choose something, does the "source" have to be on the stack or on the battlefield?
For example: I can imagine someone choosing Sudden Shock to prevent the damage before it is cast, and that being a perfectly legitimate move! its not on the stack, its in your opponent's hand, can I "choose" that source?
May 23, 2013 2:39 p.m.
CommanderFun says... #3
@GoblinsInc: so I would need to (a) be able to pay the cost and (b) be able to choose a "legal mode"? So can a legal choice/mode be that I just say that I'm choosing Sudden Shock (whether it is in their hand or not) 30 times to put 30 cards on top of my library so I only have 7 cards in hand and don't have to discard? making this a great combo with Necropotence in EDH?
May 23, 2013 2:44 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
The rule about how to choose a source, given below, basically says you have to choose something you can point to. Any Red or Black object currently on the battlefield or stack (or referred to by something else currently on the stack, like a dead Prodigal Pyromancer whose previously activated ability is waiting to resolve) is a legal choice for Penance .
119.7. The source of damage is the object that dealt it. If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent; a spell on the stack (including a permanent spell); any object referred to by an object on the stack, by a prevention or replacement effect that's waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability that's waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in); or, in certain casual variant games, a face-up card in the command zone. A source doesn't need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice. See rule 609.7, "Sources of Damage."
May 23, 2013 2:54 p.m.
CommanderFun says... #5
@Rhadamanthus: Thanks a lot for siting that rule. I was looking in the 700s and such. The rule you sited has a very important part to it:
"A source doesn't need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice"
Therefore, as I understand it now, if I had a Zur the Enchanter edh deck, I can choose zur a bunch of times and still dump my hand onto my library because I am legally choosing a black source.
...This would enable me to also set up "miracle" cards for the draw as well.
May 23, 2013 2:59 p.m.
CommanderFun says... #7
@Rhadamanthus Thanks!! That helps a ton! Looking forward to doing crazy shenanigans!!
GoblinsInc says... Accepted answer #1
If you can pay the cost (and choose legal modes, targets, etc if the ability has them), you can activate the ability anytime you have priority (barring it specifying timing restrictions).
I see no reason you can't use penance to dump your hand onto your library if you want.
May 23, 2013 2:34 p.m.