Multiverse Rogue's Gallery

Lore forum

Posted on Aug. 14, 2017, 3:15 p.m. by DemonDragonJ

With there now being numerous threats to the safety of the multiverse, and also to the protagonists of the story, I have decided to make a list of all those threats, with information about each of them, for the benefit of the players.

Dovin Baan Show

Vraska the Unseen Show

Nahiri Show

Tezzeret Show

Ob Nixilis Show

The Eldrazi Show

Nicol Bolas Show

Phyrexia Show

What does everyone think about this? I was seeking to emulate the "Azorious most wanted list" that WotC posted during the Return to Ravncia block, makign the post seem like a police profile of dangerous criminals.

I contemplated putting Garruk, Ashiok, and Tibalt on this list, but they have not yet done much to make themselves considered dangerous to the multiverse, although Garruk's hunting of other planeswalkers may qualify him for this list.

What does everyone else have to say about this? What do you think of this list?

DemonDragonJ says... #2

Why are the spoiler tags not working? They worked when I previewed the post before making it.

August 14, 2017 3:16 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #3

Please disregard my previous post, as I was able to fix the problem that I was experiencing.

August 14, 2017 3:18 p.m.

windlnk says... #4

I just want to say the nahiri part is a bit misleading in terms of the grudge's origin. nahiri was one of the three planeswalkers who lead the eldrazi to zendikar, and she hates sorin because he refused to come to her aid the first time they broke free, and imprisoned her for a thousand years in the Helvault.

Also Nixilis didn't technically conquer his home plane his army was actually defeated and in a bid of desperation he summoned a bunch of demons who killed every other living thing.

Other then those nitpicks though I like your list.

August 14, 2017 3:38 p.m.

Epochalyptik says... #5

I would reduce the Eldrazi threat level to account for the fact that they're currently dormant. I think Kozilek and Ulamog were actually obliterated, but it could be that they were just rendered immaterial.

August 14, 2017 4:10 p.m.

Homura_Akemi says... #6

Great job overall! It was enjoyable reading about the major threats in the Multiverse. I wonder if the army of Eternals working for Bolas is noteworthy in his biography.

August 14, 2017 6:39 p.m.

kanokarob says... #7

The Eldrazi threat level should actually be unknown. Ulamog and Kozilek are very much dead, and almost certainly incapable of reforming due to the nature of their demise. However, Emrakul is not imprisoned, she is waiting. She allowed her would-be destroyers, or rather forced them, to put her in the moon. Furthermore, there is and never has been official confirmation or denial that Ulamog, Kozilek, and Emrakul were ever the only three Eldrazi Titans; only that they were the three that Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri discovered and imprisoned on Zendikar.

But even after all that, it is still in question whether the Eldrazi are truly a threat or not. It is easy to theorize, based on the cryptic information learned from Emeria within Jace's mind, and the glimpses into Kozilek's thoughts by Tazri on Zendikar, that the Eldrazi are not destroyers but recyclers, only meant to "ruin" planes that are dead or dying, so as to keep the Multiverse from dying out from entropy. They only caused damage to Zendikar and to Innistrad because they were forced there against their will, and reacted poorly out of instinct. Emrakul, the most intelligent and arguably sentient of the three left Zendikar quickly at this, and when she realized she wasn't supposed to be on Innistrad either, unable to leave due to Nahiri's cryptoliths, she helped the Gatewatch and Tamiyo seal her away so she could stop doing unnecessary damage.

All of this is unconfirmed at this point, but the source material hints very heavily that something like this is the case. Because of the ambiguity, therefore, and the apparent ease of luring active Eldrazi to wreak havoc against their better judgement, they should be of an unknown danger value.

August 14, 2017 10:01 p.m.

dbpunk says... #8

The other thing is that Ral Zarek needs to be added to the list. In the story Hour of Devastation, they confirm he is working for Bolas. As well, it's confirmed that Vraska is also working for Bolas.

But this is an interesting way to put it. I'd also add Yawgmoth though, since apparently he may still be alive (although that might've been a hallucination of Karona's).

August 14, 2017 10:41 p.m.

dbpunk says... #9

I would totally add Ashiok though. He is a villain and may be coming back sooner rather than later.

From what I understood (from the last story featuring Garruk) he's not actually hunting Planeswalkers so much as attempting to avoid them.

August 14, 2017 10:43 p.m.

Homura_Akemi says... #10

dbpunk Just curious, where was it confirmed that Vraska is working for Bolas?

August 14, 2017 10:49 p.m.

dbpunk says... #11

It was on a spoiled card from the Ixalan spoilers. It was discussed on a previous thread a while back, but it said something about Vraska using a map that Bolas gave her.

August 14, 2017 11:37 p.m.

kanokarob says... #12

We don't know enough about Ashiok yet to determine Ashiok's threat level, let alone Ashiok's goals. We know Ashiok can theoretically "create" new Gods on Theros, but so far Ashiok's attempt(s) has been only a temporary victory. Additionally, Ashiok bargained specifically for shielding from the eyes of the Theros Gods. There is no doubt Ashiok is a threat, but it would seem Ashiok is only a threat to Theros, for the time being, not the multiverse.

Also, Ral Zarek may or may not be a threat himself. Just an extension of Bolas' influence, and very possibly as more of a pawn than Tezzeret. But that's just me.

August 14, 2017 11:47 p.m.

shinobigarth says... #13

Also, Ashiok's gender is unknown, if its species has genders.

August 15, 2017 12:21 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #14

dbpunk, kanokarob, I wish to wait to add Ral Zarek to this list, since the details of his association with Bolas are currently unknown; from what I have seen of him, he seems to be a very decent character, so have may not even be aware that Bolas is involved with his operations.

windlnk, I forgot about that part of Sorin and Nahiri's relationship, but it proves that Nahiri is irrational and vengeful, because her actions on Innistrad were severely disproportionate to Sorin's lack of response, due to him recovering from creating Avacyn; there was no reason that the two of them could not have discussed the situation in a calm and rational manner (although that would have made for a boring story, I suppose), making her unquestionably the aggressor in their recent interaction.

August 15, 2017 2:22 p.m.

kanokarob says... #15

Ashiok doesn't even have an unassigned gender. Ashiok identifies as Ashiok.

August 15, 2017 7:11 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #16

dbpunk, I am not certain how I feel about Vraska working for Bolas; I understand that he is one of the greatest villains in the story at the moment, but having every evil planeswalker be allied with him strains credibility. At least Ashiok, Garruk, Ob Nixilis, and Tibalt have no apparent connection to Bolas.

kanokarob, that makes it more difficult to discuss Ashiok; what was WotC thinking when they designed it/them? This may not be the place to discuss such subjects, but I cannot help but feel that WotC are succumbing to political correctness and appealing to people who refuse to identify as either male or female.

August 16, 2017 10:04 a.m.

dbpunk says... #17

I mean, I feel the same about Vraska working with Bolas. But I think it's more a self preservation thing with her.

As for the Ashiok thing, it's not a big deal even. Like you can easily say them. Also, like even if you're saying that they're playing into political correctness, who honestly cares? It doesn't really change how well the stories written if they just say that a character doesn't have a gender and honestly increasing the number of players is a good thing, because it means more people to play with. Just go with it.

August 16, 2017 10:21 a.m.

dbpunk says... #18

Plus, were talking about a manifestation of nightmares here. My guess is not all species of sentient life in the mtg multiverse really have the concept of binary gender, much less Ashiok's entire species.

August 16, 2017 10:24 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #19

dbpunk, yes, that does make sense, and no, it is not a major issue for me. I suppose that it would make sense that a physical embodiment of nightmares would not have a biological sex or other distinguishing features, since nightmares are nearly universal to all sentient beings.

August 16, 2017 2:02 p.m.

kanokarob says... #20

Again, Ashiok is not an it. Ashiok's pronouns are not they/them. Ashiok is Ashiok.

Its not about political correctness, its about an interesting character with interesting features. The Aetherborn aren't genderless solely to appease the left; they're unique, and its an interesting part of their species and their characters.

Ashiok identifying as Ashiok, to me, doesn't just make Ashiok more interesting, it adds to Ashiok's intimidation as a character. A creature, a Planeswalker, who controls and uses nightmares, who can only be referred to by name, is a unique way to create terror.

Not everything that's new is necessarily done to be inclusive. The wish or push to be inclusive allows writers to explore new interesting territory, creating new characters or traits that may have pushed people away before.

August 16, 2017 4:51 p.m.

dbpunk says... #21

kanokarob I actually hadn't even realized that Ashiok can only really be referred to by name. That's actually does make Ashiok's concept more terrifying.

August 16, 2017 5:08 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #22

kanokarob, dbpunk, I think that that was a weird decision by WotC to refer to Ashiok only as Ashiok, but this is not the thread for discussing that.

This thread is drifting away from its original topic, so could we please remain focused on the original topic?

August 16, 2017 6:02 p.m.

shinobigarth says... #23

wow thats kinda a double standard by the Magic community.

here we have Ashiok who apparently identifies as Ashiok, and people get upset by calling Ashiok "it" or "them," but then over here we have the eldrazi titans, who don't really speak and thus do not self-identify as male, female, it, them or anything else, yet we have people referring to them with male\female pronouns.

can't have it both ways. either you refer to the titans by their name and not him (in Ulamog and Kozilek's case) and her (Emrakul's case) like you insist with Ashiok, or you choose a pronoun for them and continue with male\female for them and it\them for Ashiok.

August 17, 2017 10:51 p.m.

kanokarob says... #24

The writers refer to the Eldrazi with genders. They are genderless, yes, but they're also mostly insentient, and thus we apply genders to them, as we do with other insentient beings in reality, as well as inanimate objects. Emrakul is more sentient than the other two, but she actually does identify as female, choosing the form of Emeria.

The writers refer to Ashiok with Ashiok, and have specified that is Ashiok's preference.

It's very simple.

August 18, 2017 7:15 a.m.

shinobigarth says... #25

I couldn't care less what you or they say, I'm going to keep calling Ashiok "it" if everyone keeps calling the eldrazi male and female pronouns instead of it or them. It's very simple.

August 18, 2017 2:10 p.m.

kanokarob says... #26

You're right, it is very simple. You're just blatantly ignoring it to pretend to make a statement. But naturally I won't stop you. Ill just correct you should we meet again in the future for the clarity of the thread.

August 18, 2017 9:21 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #27

shinobigarth, kanokarob, will you please remain focused on the original subject of this thread, and discuss that subject elsewhere?

August 21, 2017 9:08 a.m.

kanokarob says... #28

A: there is nowhere else relevant to discuss it right now.

B: the discussion clearly and decidedly ended three days ago.

August 21, 2017 8:30 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #29

Are there any other characters who might be worthy of being considered threats to the multiverse?

August 23, 2017 1:33 p.m.

windlnk says... #30

I think Liliana should be considered for this list. While she has been working as a protagonist in recent stories that is only because it was the best way to further her own interests. We can't forget that she is a merciless killer who cares next to nothing about the lives of those around her and will do any dark deed to strengthen herself. At the very least she belongs on the list more then Dovin Baan considering he was only against gatewatch because he saw them as allies of the rebels he had a duty to defeat and is a good person at heart. Plus Liliana does have the chain veil so her threat level is fairly high.

August 23, 2017 3:32 p.m.

Homura_Akemi says... #31

I would second Liliana. We don't know what is going to happen to her with the Chain Veil, and she is currently being influnced and controlled by Nicol Bolas, the Raven Man, and the Onnake spirits. With her being a "vessel of destruction" and having as much power as she does, Liliana seems to be a sizeable threat.

August 23, 2017 5:26 p.m.

kanokarob says... #32

I think Liliana is becoming less of a threat herself. Yes she's now "joined" Nicol Bolas, but if you read that part of the story, she very clearly looks to the Gatewatch, asks them to flee and regroup, tries to help them... and they give her nothing. They literally stare at her. So she does what she thinks she needs to do to fight another day, maybe turn against Bolas. She's clearly not happy about it.

But, the Raven Man and the Onakke spirits are very real threats. They are using Liliana, yes, but she isn't the problem; they are. We don't know what the Raven Man wants (though I suspect we may learn more about that, if even only slivers of information, on Dominaria) but he is very intent and very patient. The Onakke seem to want destruction, possibly caused by -- or as the cause of -- their resurrection from the Chain Veil. Both are aware of the existence of the Multiverse (The Onakke know who Emrakul is and what she's capable of, knowledge which they would not have from Shandalar alone.) which inherently makes them capable of having multiverse-resonating plans and effects, given the time and means. Both of which they each have.

For now though, the Raven Man and the Onakke do seem to be at odds. The Raven Man wants Liliana to have the Veil and to understand it, but specifically does not want her to fall victim to it. So while they each will eventually have their turn as the prime antagonist, for now, they are keeping each other at bay. To a degree.

August 23, 2017 8:54 p.m.

DriftWood96 says... #33

The only reasons the Eldrazi had any gender pronouns attached to them was because when they were worshipped as the gods on Zendikar, Cosi (Kozilek) was depicted as a man, Ula (Ulamog) was depicted as a man, and Emeria (Emrakul) was depicted as a female angel.

August 26, 2017 5:51 p.m.

ERoss8 says... #34

I know what Bolas did on Tarkir (kill Ugin, various results based on timeline), but what else was he there for...

I move for Garruk to have his own tab. The Eldrazi have their own tab and they are currently dormant. Just because someone who has shown they are violent in the past is currently passive (not even "good"!) doesn't mean they will stay that way. (Be funny if Jace runs into him on Ixalan, but that's beside the point)

Sorin would also be interesting to include. Same logic applies (trapped in a wall, stone cutting into his insides), but he is selfish, fairly powerful,and pissed. I'd give at most an intermediate grade to both, but they are not to be forgotten/cast off.

BTW, Great list! I think Ashiok is also plotting something, and is more adept to act on his plan than Baan, who was guilty by association with Tezzeret(in my eyes). And, according to this comic, http://manadeprived.com/comics/durdling-around-197-birth-anti-gatewatch/Both Ashiok and Tybalt are working with Bolas =)

September 9, 2017 11:47 p.m.

ERoss8 says... #35

Sorry for double post, but Tybalt needs to be on the list as well. He's a general nuance, but an actual, albeit not a huge, threat. Plus, according to the above comic, he's working with Bolas.

September 11, 2017 12:13 a.m.

windlnk says... #36

Pretty sure that comic is in no way cannon buddy.

September 11, 2017 12:20 a.m.

Funkydiscogod says... #37

Back during Kamigawa/Ravnica standard, I remember reading somewhere that it was the Kami war that caused the spirits of Ravnica to wake.

I don't remember where I read that. I want to say it was in the Ravnica players' guide that came in the fat pack, but it could have been flavor text of a card, or the description on the back of a preconstructed deck, or even it might've been on Wizards website. It's been so long I can't remember.

If we can confirm the source, we could actually add the Kami to the list as "low threat", since that implies they exist across planes, but aren't interested in war, except for That Which Was Taken.

September 11, 2017 1:34 a.m.

kanokarob says... #38

I don't believe the Kami War ended up causing anything on other planes. I know part of what allowed the Kami War to happen was the ringing of the Apocalypse Chimes in the Great Destruction on Ulgrotha (broke down the stability between the physical and spiritual world, allowing for O-Kagachi's divinity be taken and for the Kami to fight back for it), which had a number of effects on the Multiverse due to the existence of the rifts.

September 11, 2017 6:49 a.m.

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