organising a tournament
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 29, 2017, 11:27 a.m. by Winterblast
I would like to establish frequent commander torunaments in our area, because in the past that only happened like once or twice a year when the LGS spontaneously came up with a date on some holiday or another. That meant very little time to prepare, no time to test (because the torunament mode wasn't clear in advance) and of course it's not even sure that you can show up on that day when the announcement is just like one week before.
Before asking our LGS to host more torunaments, I'd like to come up with an idea on how to hold such events in order to reward competitive play while also attracting unknown people outside our local playgroup (who don't know what exactly the meta might be in another town), to support a variable number of participants and to ensure that interesting prizes can be won.
I've talked to some of our players, saying "tournaments would be cool again here around, don't you think?" and th reactions were generally positive but I feel like everyone thinks we won't be enough people or it would be badly organised or we might just wait if our shopkeeper comes up with a date on his own again (but then we surely have discussions right before the event, how we should actually hold the torunament and half of the people won't have time to show up). It seems someone has to come up with a concept and present it or nothing will happen. I'd like to do that before something like in another town happens, where the LGS now actually uses the MTGO banlist for events with real cards...which is absolutely ridiculous (and I think half of the time these events aren't held because people aren't very much interested of course)
So the question is: do you have any experience with organising a commander torunament and how was it held? Do you have any idea on how to combine multiplayer pods and 1 vs 1 games in order to determine a ranking? How could points be given?
I think it would appeal to more people (also strangers from other towns) if we played games with 3 or 4 people and then sort of finals in a 1 vs 1 setting (or the other way round? duels to determine who sits on which multiplayer table?) because some people will think they have better chances in multiplayer while being bad in duels and vice versa.
Thanks for your answers!
Winterblast says... #3
redkhan that sounds good for a weekly event. We already have a weekly regular's table after the shop closes on wednesday but what is missing is some events with a larger prize support. Our last tournament was in October 2016 and then the winner at least got a stoneforge mystic promo and the next in the ranking got boosters...that was a 1 vs 1 setting with 8 people I think. The duels were interesting and I'd like to see that again, just some people probably won't show up if it's ONLY duels and others wouldn't pay for ONLY multiplayer because we do that every week anyway...
Is there a better way to give points for more rounds in multiplayer other than just give the last man standing a point? Like maybe 1 point for each kill, and 1 for being the last remaining player?
June 29, 2017 11:56 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #4
redkhan's idea seems best. Leagues are a horrible idea. I would totally pay $5 for commander night if we are put into pods of 3-5 at random and the winners get $10 of store credit.
June 29, 2017 11:57 a.m.
Winterblast says... #5
What exactly do you mean with leagues MagicalHacker?
I don't think we should do something like count points over several weeks before someone gets a prize, just play more than one round to get a ranking for the event. One game of 3 or 4 seems a bit short imo, we surely have like 3 hours time for an event
June 29, 2017 12:22 p.m.
I love the way my LGS does it. It's $10 entry, and you immediately get 3 packs; then you can play through 4 hours until the store closes in any pods you want. Each pod you win is another pack! It's super fun, casual but it rewards you just for playing magic. I would see if you could set something like this up!
June 29, 2017 1:39 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #7
vishnarg, does your store allow store credit instead?
June 29, 2017 1:54 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #8
Winterblast, exactly that! Here are some of the main reasons why a league would be bad:
If you count points over multiple weeks, players might be discouraged from coming if they have missed weeks or they know they have no chance to win. By making each session its own thing, you stay inviting to everyone.
If you use a point system to give prizes, people build decks with the goal of gaining as many points as possible.
If you do a system where previous results are officially known, players tend to complain about being paired up with the better players.
I agree, I think multiple rounds should be held, but they should have official start times for everyone. Otherwise, it could be unfair to those who play decks that kill very quickly, which shouldn't be encouraged.
June 29, 2017 1:58 p.m.
Winterblast says... #9
vishnarg how does the shop finance that system? Getting 3 packs for 10 (euro in my case) is the usual price for a draft and if you add one booster per win for a time span of 4 hours, that could be a hell of a lot of boosters, if only 2 pods play simultaneously, with more people it could be a huge loss for whoever hands out the boosters. Is that an action your LGS has started to get more people in the shop or does it pay off?
One problem I see with boosters as prizes is that there's little to gain for our regular commander player. Most of us save our money for singles and if we play for a prize it should be something that you can use to improve your deck(s) and not the random contents of a standard legal booster pack. If for example 10 people take part for 10 euro each, I could provide one of the cheaper duals like a Taiga, a fetchland and a shockland for the first three places. That's why it would be cool to find a suitable system to get a clear ranking after roughly 3 hours and several pod and duel rounds.
June 29, 2017 2:19 p.m.
No, you have to get packs, but still it's usually like 4 or 5 packs and 4 hours of commander fun with strangers for $10!
June 29, 2017 2:19 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #11
I am not a special snowflake when I say I don't value packs at all, so I wouldn't be interested in paying 10 dollars if I could only win packs.
Winterblast, I would instead say just to reward store credit. By having big flashy prizes, most players won't be interested since they will be harder to get. This is what I suggest:
Each player plays 5 dollars and writes down if they prefer multiplayer or 1v1 (for banlist, just use the official multiplayer one for both, but have 1v1 games begin at 30 life). Assign players based on what they prefer at random. When someone wins a game, they win X dollars in store credit, where X is 5 times the number of opponents they beat. Each game would a 5 dollar profit for the store, but in addition, they players would use their gains to spend the money at the store, guaranteeing purchases based on that. Packs, singles, snacks, whatever.
June 29, 2017 2:29 p.m. Edited.
Winterblast says... #12
MagicalHacker I'm not a fan of playing for packs either, mostly because we each open at least one display when a new set is released, if there are interesting cards inside (and invocations definitely are a reason). After that we don't spend any more money on overpriced single boosters and playing for them isn't much of an excitement.
We always play with the official banlist and 40 life for multiplayer and duels because otherwise aggro would be too strong. That's the easiest part to clarify, also for strangers, because it's always the same with no house rules for mulligans and whatever.
I also have to say that we play commander outside of the shop in an inn, like 5 minutes by car from the shop. Playing for money that you can't even spend because it's a shop credit and we aren't in the shop, even though the shopkeeper is one of the players...that takes away some excitement, compared to when you can actually see the prize you are playing for. And it would mean we could set a fixed date, like every 2nd Wednesday of the month, and it doesn't matter if the shop owner is at the inn (it's outside his opening hours so if he has private appointments it can happen that he doesn't show up at the commander session or leaves earlier).
The goal of frequent tournament play between the regular sessions for amusement should achieve:
1) everyone having a chance of playing their top deck against what the other players see as their top deck (which is hard to judge in the weekly casual setting)
2) getting to see new competitive decks of people who usually play elsewhere and maybe getting them to visit the weekly sessions sometimes as well
June 29, 2017 3:29 p.m.
Winterblast says... #13
Oh yes and of course 3) rewarding the players for good deckbuilding and play by winning stuff that further improves the decks
June 29, 2017 3:34 p.m.
Winterblast says... #14
I like your idea of getting points per defeated opponent whether it is in a pod or duel, MagicalHacker. I think that is easy to explain even to people who only happen to come by once. I'm still trying to figure out if it's possible to have a ranking in the end instead of just adding a certain amount of money for each win? Would rewarding one point per defeated opponent and pairing the next rounds according to the points from the previous rounds result in a clear ranking after 2-3 pods and 1-2 duels? It could be paid out in money for all according to points or card/booster prizes for the top X in the end, if that method works.
Another technical question is, what does count as "defeating an opponent in a multiplayer match mean? Simply outlive that player, or actively kick them out? The latter option would encourage more action but would also raise impossible questions such as who is responsible for the loss of a self milling Hermit Druid after the combo has been stopped...impracticable if we want to play for a prize.
It's a bit stupid that the usual swiss tournament method doesn't work for matches with more players and an alternative still has to be easy to explain and execute.
June 29, 2017 5:54 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #15
I meant giving points only to whomever gets first.
June 29, 2017 6:05 p.m.
Winterblast says... #16
This might prevent (even unconsciously) teaming up to rob the victory off the best player in the pod or even killing the (seemingly) best player first. Actually a good way to ensure decisions are based with winning in mind, which makes the whole thing competitive in the first place.
It would take quite a few rounds to get a clear ranking though, because only one player gets a point for each pod match and the rest have the same amount as before that round.
June 30, 2017 4:53 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #17
Hmm, I guess a round of 1v1s and then two rounds of 3-5 player pods might work? Forget asking players their preferences and just play 1v1 first?
June 30, 2017 5:45 a.m.
Winterblast says... #18
I would definitely go for multiplayer AND 1 vs 1 because it's more competitive than having just rounds of 3 or 4 people. I think it's important to shut down emotional gameplay if we play for a prize, no matter what it should be then. Having only multiplayer matches could result in severe disruption of fair and strategic gameplay by weaker players who might already have conceded internally after the first two rounds and just keep playing to irritate the opponents who play for the top ranks. That will probably happen if you hold duels before playing in pods: the losers of the duel rounds will fuck up the pods just for the lulz
Having multiplayer rounds before duels would give dedicated multiplayer guys a better chance of getting in the finals and it will give weaker players a feeling of having a chance as well (even though it's eventually not the case in a competition). If someone lacks the skill and/or has an objectively weak deck, he will be bashed in the duel rounds anyway, even if he has already won one or two pods with pure luck. I guess duel wins would have to result in more points then (2 for win, 1 for draw) to get a better distinction in the ranking without having to play round after round until early in the morning.
creating a tournament plan for a variable number of players seems to be a tough piece of work, especially when the number can be odd and you don't know how many show up (I guess it would be something between 6 and 10 regular players + an unknown number of strangers that haven't previously visited).
June 30, 2017 6:40 a.m.
Why are you trying to make this competitive? It's commander, the entire idea of the format is laid back and for fun. Making a tournament out of it with a 1v1 section not only takes away from the spirit of the great format but it changes deckbuilding greatly. If people want to play 1v1, there's three other great formats they can try - I think you miss the point of a commander event Winterblast.
June 30, 2017 8:25 a.m.
Winterblast says... #20
vishnarg the debate is not about whether we should play competitive decks or not - we already do that, meaning most of the regular players already have the decks tuned to the max or are constantly improving them, but for weekly fun sessions. However, it would be cool if we could find a system to play with prize support like once a month, which would create even more tension in the games and also attract unknown players from other nearby towns and get them to visit and enrich our meta with other competitive decks. For example we don't have a food chain prossh or tazri at the moment and no one is playing doomsday...
There's also the potential of getting the local players of other formats intrested, who would certainly have the cards/money but simply don't play commander because "there's nothing to win, so it's boring".
The point of this thread is simply to find out how the usual swiss tournament mode could be modified to support multiple players per game as well or if there's another way to get a clear ranking after some rounds of multiplayer/duel matches (with the time limit of roughly 3-4 hours in total).
June 30, 2017 9:31 a.m.
Oh ok that's fair. I mean there are plenty of ways to design a more free for all tournament that you can still win something by playing, but your ideas are good too.
June 30, 2017 9:35 a.m.
rshistorysmuf says... #22
Commander Deck Tournament Rules Pack.
This is a multiplayer format based on last one standing and point accumulation through destructiveness and resilience. You will need a legal Commander Deck, Dice for counters and we will have a big board to note any global effects.
How many players?It will start like a big poker game with all players sitting around one table battling for position on the top table.
Round 1At the end of the first game the table will split into 2 tables: 8 players the game will end with a top table and bottom table of 4 players each for the second round. 9 players will split into 5 player commander star battle top table and a standard 4 player battle. 10 players the game will split into 2 tables of commander star battles. 11 players: 6 player top table and 5 player commander star battle 12 players: two 6 player battles 13 players: 5 commander star/4/4 14 players: 5 commander star/5cs/4 15 players: 5 commander star x3 16 players: = 2 8 player formats
Round 2Keeping the same format for table splits, the 3 round will be mirrored on a first out fill the bottom table first.
Round 3We are playing for points!
Who goes first?What we need to know is the total converted mana cost of your deck (an x casting cost =1). The highest converted mana cost player goes first and down it goes sitting left of the first.
If converted mana costs are tied then those with the highest converted mana cost Commander breaks the tie. If still tied the one with the least duplicated basic land breaks the tie.
Who goes first in Round 2?The first player to be removed from the game gets to sit in first position of the new table, followed by subsequent players filling in positions to the left until the bottom table is filled and then the top table.
Who goes first in Round 3?Both tables now feed into the bottom and top tables based on a first come first serve basis.How are points scored?First person to be removed from a game gets 1pt and the second player gets 2pts etc. Those who knocked out a player get a 1pt for knocking out the first and 2pts for knocking out then second player etc.
Repeat this formula for both tables in rounds 2 and 3. The order of removal from either table is still awarded first and second etc.
What happens if there is a draw?What we need to know is the total converted mana cost of your deck (an x casting cost =1). The highest converted mana cost player wins the tie.If converted mana costs are tied then those with the highest converted mana cost Commander breaks the tie. If still tied the one with the least duplicated basic land breaks the tie.
Anyone who concedes a game will score 0 points and if their result is tied they will automatically lose the tie.
Additional rules:
Please list your deck (alphabetically with converted mana costs in 2 columns) on an excel sheet and noted converted mana costs. Failure to do so will relegate you to last place the first table as we add up the converted mana cost. Furthermore, if it eats into the game time you will also forfeit the Mulligan rules.
To keep things running smoothly please submit your list the day before the game.
Game time 2hours. If players have not been removed from the game they will be removed in order of lowest to highest Life Totals.
Partial Mulligan Rules clarification.If your hand is duff you can draw a new hand but put the old one at the bottom of your library. You may do this 4 times, but each time you but each time 1 less than the previous Mulligan. Eg if you first Mulligan put 5 cards to the bottom of the Library and drew 5, your second Mulligan can only be 4 cards.
Turn 1After All the Mulligans have been resolved all players may draw a card and have their turn 1. Having done this it goes to player 1s second turn and play on as normal.
Every player has 40 life points but commander damage cannot be used to remove opponents from the game. However, you can record commander damage and the one with the most points wins points wins the most violent commander award and a prize!
Any Questions or Suggestions?
June 30, 2017 2:19 p.m.
rshistorysmuf says... #23
I'm trying to test this out in the next month or so.
June 30, 2017 2:20 p.m.
Winterblast says... #24
rshistorysmuf this sounds like a concept that works for determining a winner, but honestly I wouldn't want to play any games with more than 5 players. With 6 you can already do 2 times 3 and avoid unnecessary confusion by having a too large board and sitting too far away from each other. It would be exceptionally easy to set up a combo witout most players even realising what's going on like 3 or 4 seats away. And please take your time to imagine how hard to track a constant global damage source like Purphoros, God of the Forge would be...maybe even with Norin the Wary? Or let's talk about that Norin with Confusion in the Ranks on a 10 player table...
You probably need two judges before everyone has even completed their second turn haha
redkhan says... #2
My LGS holds weekly commander pods. Players are divided randomly, we play, and the winners from each pod get a free pack. This setup seems to work nicely for my LGS and there is usually a decent turnout every week. Hope this helps you come up with something.
June 29, 2017 11:43 a.m.