Retraction Helix + Jeskai Ascendancy
Asked by w4rped 10 years ago
Ok so here's the question. I know it's not the infinite combo thing, or really an ultimate combo. Just possibly a good combo I want to use.Retraction Helix + Jeskai Ascendancy.
Now the way the stack works is first in last out, right? So if I cast retraction helix on a creature it triggers the jeskai ascendancy (which goes on the stack first). Then the helix successfully casts, which gives the creature an ability since its after the ascendancy on the stack. Now, in response to the successful casting, I tap my creature to return a permanent which goes on the stack. The ability resolves, and then the ascendancy resolves which untaps the creature that used its ability.
Now I can use that same creature's ability again.This is just a question about the stack rules in this situation and I can't find anything that is a similar situation online. This is basically abusing the stack rules if it works, but I need to know if it does.
For example with heroic creature. When I cast a spell that targets the heroic creature the heroic trigger goes on the stack first before the spell is cast. Then once the spell successfully casts, it resolves. It is possible to react to the spell successfully casting and completing before the heroic trigger resolves. I know this is how heroic works because judges are constantly giving me this ruling at events when people do something to my creature as I trigger it's heroic ability which resolves first.
So if you extrapolate the situation to the ascendancy it should work, in theory. I need to know why it works for heroic and not for the ascendancy. Please explain if you can.
You are not paying attention to what I am saying. And obviously do not understand the heroic trigger I am talking about. When you announce the spell and pay it's cost and target a creature the spell is not cast yet. The heroic trigger is put on the stack AT THIS TIME. The spell need not resolve for this part to happen. It can be countered and the trigger still happens because the spell was cast even if not successfully.
Even if you consider it the way you say and the spell must finish casting before the Jeskai ascendancy is put on the stack, if I respond to the successful casting of the spell by activating the ability it would still go on the stack AFTER the ascendancy therefor resolving first. So again, you have not explained why it won't work. The things you say may be true but are still in line with what I am saying as well.
November 2, 2014 7:52 p.m.
Nevermind. I don't care anymore. I'll just go with the judge ruling at the match. I can't explain it right here apparently.
November 2, 2014 8:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #4
Try again.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2ag are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
Furthermore, there's no "successful" casting. You cast the spell. That's it. Whether the spell is countered has no impact on whether the spell was cast. The spell is cast at the moment its casting process is complete.
And you can't activate the ability granted by Retraction Helix in response to Jeskai Ascendency's ability because Retraction Helix hasn't resolved yet.
I very clearly have explained why it won't work. You have the wrong interpretation of the stack. You mistakenly believe that you can slide a spell or ability in below the spell that triggers Jeskai Ascendency or heroic. As I explained, that's not possible because abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell will trigger after the spell is already on the stack.
November 2, 2014 8:15 p.m.
Just to point out something here, this is what's tripping you up. Because heroic doesn't work this way.
When you announce the spell and pay it's cost and target a creature the spell is not cast yet. The heroic trigger is put on the stack AT THIS TIME.
Heroic rules text, emphasis on the use of cast.
Heroic Whenever you "cast" a spell that targets Akroan Crusader, put a 1/1 red Soldier creature token with haste onto the battlefield.
Heroic can not possibly trigger unless the spell has been cast, and casting means putting it on the stack. Your heroic trigger will always end up on top of, and resolve first, from the spell that triggered it.
November 2, 2014 9:05 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #6
In solidarity of what Epochalyptik and Slycne are saying, from Gatherer:
Heroic abilities will resolve before the spell that caused them to trigger.
This is a note on every card with a Heroic trigger. Here's Akroan Crusader as an example.
November 2, 2014 9:20 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #7
Mayhaps a picture would help. To illustrate my example, we will be casting Retraction Helix on Phalanx Leader , who has a heroic ability.
Stack: | |
I cast Retraction Helix , pay
, and declare Phalanx Leader
as my target, placing the spell on the stack. Stack: | Retraction Helix |
Heroic triggers, because I targeted Phalanx Leader , this ability is placed on the stack.
Stack: | Phalanx Leader heroic |
| Retraction Helix |
The topmost thing in the stack resolves, ie the heroic.
Stack: | Retraction Helix |
The Retraction Helix resolves, giving my Phalanx Leader (who now has a +1/+1 counter on him) the ability listed.
For the Ascendancy:
Stack: | |
I cast Retraction Helix , paying
, declaring Ornithopter
as my target, placing the spell on the stack. Stack: | Retraction Helix |
Jeskai Ascendancy triggers due to a non-creature spell. This ability goes on the stack.
Stack: | Jeskai Ascendancy trigger |
| Retraction Helix |
The topmost item in the stack resolves, and I untap all of my guys, and can loot 1.
Stack: | Retraction Helix |
Retraction Helix now resolves, and my Ornithopter can bounce things.
If this doesn't help, I'm sorry, nothing will, you've had comprehensive rules, explanations, and pictures. What you have described does not work ever, and will not work ever.
November 2, 2014 11:38 p.m.
Nigeltastic, you are right except that Jeskai Ascendancy
has two triggers, not one. One that gives +1/+1 and untaps, and another which loots. This means that you can a.) choose which order these events happen in, but b.) respond to one trigger after the first has resolved. That being said: you explained it properly apart from that minor thing. w4rped: Generally as a rule of thumb, trust Epochalyptik's word on rulings. I'm not sure if he's a judge (he probably is), but he's very rules knowledgeable, and what you are saying is plain incorrect. Whichever judge you have been speaking to does not know the rules or you have misinterpreted what they're saying. It does not work in either scenario: heroic or ascendancy.
To put it simply: a spell is cast once it is on the stack, has a legal target etc.
AFTER a spell is put on the stack, "when you cast" triggers go on the stack. This means that they resolve first, as they are at the top of the stack. If multiple "when you cast" triggers are put onto the stack, the turn player has his put on in the order he or she wishes, and then the other players in turn stack theirs in any order they wish.
I think I'll try to explain what judges are telling you, as I believe that you're misinterpreting them. I'll use random examples that may be seen in a heroic deck for my explanation.
You cast Ordeal of Thassa
on a Favored Hoplite
. Ordeal goes on the stack, and then the heroic trigger goes on the stack. This trigger will therefore resolve first. Your opponent does not like where this is going, and so they respond to the heroic trigger, by Magma Spray
ing your favoured hoplite. This means that the Stack looks like this from top (T) to bottom (B)
Top Magma Spray
--> Favored Hoplite
heroic trigger --> Ordeal of Thassa
Bottom.
So: spray resolves first, dealing 2 to hoplite. State-based actions are checked and hoplite is exiled because he has 2 damage marked on him and he's 2-toughness. The heroic trigger resolves, but because hoplite is exiled, it does nothing, and finally, ordeal fizzles due to lack of a legal target.
2 more things: a.) Remember to select a correct answer, and b.) this one is directed at Epoch: Jeskai Ascendancy
is spelt "dancy" not "dency" (sorry, those links to other random troll users just drive me crazy.) I hope this clears any issues up.
November 3, 2014 12:18 a.m.
Nigeltastic says... #9
KingSorin -- You are indeed correct, I forget that it's split like that. They both go above the Helix though so no matter what it ends up roughly the same.
November 3, 2014 12:41 a.m.
You are all correct, thanks for responding. I no longer care about this because I am incapable of explaining what I need to, but thank you all for your time. I will deal with the situations as they arise in games.And as for Epochalyptik... You can say there is no such thing as successful casting if you want, but you are simply mincing words. Cast and successfully cast used to be used but I have not seen it recently. It is just another way to say cast and resolved. You understood what I meant, but you were willfully ignorant to it for some reason. Either way, it doesn't matter anymore.
November 3, 2014 4:01 a.m.
"Cast and successfully cast used to be used but I have not seen it recently. It is just another way to say cast and resolved."
It actually isn't.
Cast and Successfully Cast is the same thing, but Successfully Cast was removed with the Sixth Edition rules changes.
Abilities that triggered on a spell being "successfully cast" now triggered on a spell being "played." - MTG Salvation Wiki
A spell being "played" has since become "cast".
For instance, Onslaught
reads "successfully cast" while its Oracle text says "cast".
November 3, 2014 6:21 a.m.
GreatSword says... #12
w4rped, remember to choose an answer to remove the question from the que.
November 3, 2014 11:46 a.m.
@DSHoyt See, this is what I was talking about in your other thread.
November 3, 2014 12:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
@w4rped: There's no willful ignorance here. There's a reason you haven't seen "successfully cast" in years. It's an obsolete phrase and is therefore inappropriate to use while explaining rule mechanics.
November 3, 2014 12:52 p.m.
I prefer the term successfully cast. It is the term I used when I first started playing. As I said, you knew what I meant. So you could have simply moved on instead of saying that there was no such thing and then defending that there wasnt. Since you knew about how things used to be, you knew what I meant when I said it.
I didn't know I had to selet an answer. Sorry about that. I'll choose one quick.
November 3, 2014 7:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
It's not defending that there isn't. There simply isn't. The term is now obsolete, and it has been replaced by "cast." I corrected you because it's best to always use the current and appropriate terminology/wording when discussing rules questions. You can minimize confusion and complexity that way.
The internet isn't serious business. Don't take it personally.
November 3, 2014 9:45 p.m.
You were referring to something being 'cast' and THEN being 'successfully cast' in your explanation as though they referred to different things, and they no longer do. That's why it's important to use correct language and not just assume what somebody means or assume that others will get what happens.
"So if I cast retraction helix on a creature it triggers the jeskai ascendancy (which goes on the stack first). Then the helix successfully casts, which gives the creature an ability since its after the ascendancy on the stack."
You're implying that you've cast the spell, which puts Jeskai Ascendancy on the stack, and THEN the spell 'successfully casts' which puts IT on the stack, which is just not how the stack works.
This isn't about somebody refusing to use your out-of-date wording.
Epochalyptik says... #1
First, link all cards in your question.
Jeskai Ascendency
Retraction Helix
As we said in your other thread (don't reask questions), it doesn't work. In either situation.
Abilities that trigger when you're casting a spell, activating an ability, or resolving either a spell or ability always wait until that process is finished before they can be put onto the stack. Furthermore, the first thing you do when casting a spell or activating an ability is announce the spell or ability, then put it onto the stack. After that, you make all other choices for it and pay its costs. Abilities that trigger when you cast a spell or activate an ability will NEVER be below that spell or ability on the stack. They will always be above.
November 2, 2014 7:12 p.m.