Persist Combos: Do +1/+1 counters completely negate -1/-1 counters?
Asked by 5OhmResistor 2 years ago
Hey guys,
I am a new MTG player (been playing for ~5 months) and I need help understanding a concept about Persist. I've been working on my Ghave, Guru of Spores deck. It seems like one of the most prevalent and game winning combos are persist combinations. From my understanding, all you need is a sac outlet, something that gives ETB +1/+1 counters, and a persist creature. Thus, from my logic, something like Viscera Seer , Juniper Order Ranger , and Kitchen Finks could give me infinite life, infinite counters, and infinite scry.
With this being said, my pod/group tells me that an equal amount of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters do not negate each other in terms of status effect. In order words, they DO cancel each other out in terms of power and toughness of a creature but they DO NOT cancel in terms of status effect. Meaning once a creature receives a -1/-1 counter, regardless of whether this counter is mathematically nullified by a +1/+1 counter, the status/presence of the -1/-1 counter is still there, meaning that Kitchen Finks would not be able to come back to the battlefield due to the -1/-1 counter regardless of how many +1/+1 counters it has. Think of the -1/-1 counter as like a label on a creature. I can clarify on this a little more if you guys like and also ask my friends more about their rationale.
Overall, I have never thought about this reasoning until I played with my friends yesterday. Half of my combo lines involve Persist and the idea that -1/-1 counters cannot be nullified if an equal amount of +1/+1 counters are given handicaps my deck from a competitive point of view. Thus, I need you guys to help me settle the debate; am I wrong on this? If not, how do I convince my group?
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #2
It's worth noting that this wasn't always the case. If your playgroup consists of veteran players, especially ones that took long breaks from the game, they may have missed the addition of this rule with the release of Shadowmoor in 2008. But it is irrefutably part of the game, and has been for over a decade.
Caerwyn says... Accepted answer #1
Your playgroup is wrong. When a creature has both a +1/+1 counter on it and a -1/-1 counter on it, those counters are both completely removed--they do not merely cancel one another out. Thus, they no longer exist. Something that does not exist cannot be taken into account by the game.
Here is the rule--fortunately, it is rather well-written, so it is fairly incontrovertible evidence you can use to convince your playgroup:
122.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
June 19, 2021 10:44 a.m.