Hive Mind, Copies and Counterspells
Asked by JasonD 12 years ago
Some time ago I was building a deck and encountered a similar problem to the one I'm about to post. I received an answer but I'm still somewhat fuzzy on the details of certain interactions sometimes. As I can't find the old post anymore, here's to a new one.
I was wondering about Hive Mind 's copied spells. As I play a spell, Hive Mind 's ability will trigger (Whenever...) and go onto the stack. Then I suppose that trigger resolves and generates the copies. I'm also assuming you can Stifle or Trickbind the ability, just like Chandra, the Firebrand 's -2 ability and the likes, to cancel them out.
But suppose I also have a Eye of the Storm on the table, and cast multiple spells from it. How will those triggers stack?
hive mind 2spell 2hive mind 1spell 1
or stack like this
hive mind 2 hive mind 1spell 2spell 1
(personaly I would think option 2, since all the Eye of the Storm spells would enter the stack at the same time...?)
Then suppose I play three spells from Eye of the Storm , those spells being Unsummon , Redirect and Double Negative . I will choose to stack them like this.
Unsummon Redirect Double Negative
What way would Hive Mind interact with this stack? And would I (only) be allowed to Double Negative my own two spells? Or would I be able to see the copies on the stack as well, and target them with Double Negative ? (so, when do I have to assign targets for my Double Negative considering the Hive Mind trigger?)
When do they get their Double Negative s? And which spells would they be able to see and counterspell? And when would my opponents assign targets for Redirect ? Which spells would they be able to redicrect? And what way could I stack this so I get the maximum amount of chaos out of this situation?
Lastly, can I react to each 'cast' out of the Eye of the Storm seperately with, say, another Redirect ? And then, what would happen to all these previous questions?
I hope the big wall of text illustrates the headache I have over this deck (let alone the other cards in there), and I want to be able to explain it right when it 'goes off' in a multiplayer game. After playtesting, at one point, nobody really knew what was going on anymore, and being the owner of the deck I should be the one able to keep track of all the crazy...
Hope anyone is willing to help out, thanks in advance. =)
So what you're saying is that the Hive Mind triggers will resolve before the copies they put on the stack do? Because in that case, my opponents would be able to target eachother's spells with the Double Negative , even the ones that came from other Hive Mind triggers.
May 28, 2012 3:31 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #3
They would only be able to target spells above them on the stack, if you look at the example I listed above. If you elect to have the Hive Mind trigger copying Double Negative go last, then first the Unsummon trigger will resolve, then all those copies will resolve before the Redirect trigger resolves. Those copies will have to resolve before the Double Negative trigger can resolve, so they won't be around to target anymore.
They can have a redirect war over your original 3 spells, and they can all choose to counter those spells, but the double negatives won't be able to target copied Redirect or Unsummon spells.
May 28, 2012 3:49 p.m.
Yep, exactly. That is, unfortunately, exactly the way I figured it would happen. Much less exciting that way than when everyone would be able to Double Negative everyone else's copies of whatever spell.
Anyway, thanks a lot for clearing that up. With all the different interactions of spells and enchantments in that deck things can get a little muddled at times. If you're interested, my finished decklist can be found here: You figure it out!
I'll mark your primary answer as Accepted. Thanks again.
BrightGreenLine says... Accepted answer #1
Well, let's look at how Eye of the Storm interacts with Hive Mind . First, you cast any instant or sorcery spell. Both enchantments will trigger, and they will be stacked in whatever order you would like. The order is not terribly important: Even if Eye of the Storm exiles the spell first, Hive Mind will try to copy it using last known info.
So, let's just resolve Hive Mind first, and I'll use Rampant Growth as my example. Once the trigger resolves, each other player will get a copy of Rampant Growth put on the stack. The stack will look like this:
The #3 will then resolve, and every other player will cast Rampant Growth and find a land. Then, Eye of the Storm will be the trigger remaining. Now is where it gets a little trickier. First your Rampant Growth will be exiled, and then you will get to cast Unsummon , Redirect , and Double Negative . You can cast these in any order you see fit, and each spell will be able to 'see' the previous spells. You can cast Unsummon, then Redirect targeting that Unsummon, and finally Double Negative targeting either, both, or none of those spells.
But wait. There's a magic word in there: You CAST those spells. Casting is the trigger condition for Hive Mind, isn't it? That's right; now, each other player will get a copy of each spell you cast from Eye of the Storm. The controller of Hive Mind gets to choose the order those triggers are stacked too, per the rules in 116, "Handling Triggered Abilities."
So now, you have your copies of Unsummon, Redirect, and Double Negative on the stack. You have 3 Hive Mind triggers, one for each spell. You can choose for those triggers to resolve in whatever order you want, so all other players must put their copy of Double Negative on the stack in APNAP order, if you so choose.
In the end, here is what the stack will look like after Eye of the Storm (and Hive Mind) finish resolving.
Also of note: Eye of the Storm is a MAY condition. You dont need to copy every spell it contains, and you can't copy spells you can't cast. If you choose not to cast Unsummon from it, you won't be able to cast Double Negative or Redirect because there won't be any legal targets on the stack for them.
As well, you won't be able to interact with your opponents' copies of the spells because they won't be put on the stack until well after you put yours there.
May 28, 2012 3:14 p.m.