Does Cloning by Instant spell make Token Copies before a removal spell takes affect?
Asked by Loreshadow 5 years ago
Can I use it to trigger an ETB counterspell exploit before the original is killed and save the original?
Elite Arcanist + Cackling Counterpart is the goal.
Fated Infatuation as well. All the same questions.
Does a token copy still get made before an original is killed/exiled/returned?
Can a token copy be made and then have them activate a mana or self sacrifice ability to then counter the spell?
Let's look at the stack for both your examples:
Does a token copy still get made before an original is killed/exiled/returned?
Yes. Here is how the stack would look:
They target your Elite Arcanist with a removal spell (let's say Terminate). The only spell on the stack right now is Terminate.
While Terminate is on the stack, you cast Cackling Counterpart. The stack now looks like this: Terminate first Cackling Counterpart second. Elite Arcanist is still alive.
Because Cackling Counterpart was put on the stack second, it resolves first. Terminate is still on the stack, and thus has not destroyed your creature.
Cackling Counterpart resolves. Your creature is still in play and is duplicated. Now you have Elite Arcanist, a copy of Elite Arcanist, and Terminate is still on the stack.
Terminate resolves. Your Elite Arcanist dies; your token survives.
Second question: Can a token copy be made and then have them activate a mana or self sacrifice ability to then counter the spell?
Yes, provided it would be legal to activate the ability.
See steps 1-4 above.
In response to the Terminate being on the stack. You can now activate a legal ability of your creatures token. However, your token Elite Arcanist will have summoning sickness, so this would not work. If you had a method of giving your creatures haste, this would be legal. However, if you had a card like Brine Shaman, you would be able to activate the ability. This is less useful than it seems--you could have activated your original Brine Shaman's ability and countered the spell, even if the targeted creature was tapped.
The counter would go on the stack second, targeting the Terminate on the stack.
The counter would resolve first; Terminate would be countered.
May 3, 2018 5:22 p.m.
Loreshadow says... #3
So if I wanted to protect one of my creatures I could just have my Elite Arcanist cast Cackling Counterpart on a Siren Stormtamer, and pay the man to sac the toke, leaving my original target in once piece?
If I wanted to counter a creature and only have a Negate in my hand I could still use my same Elite Arcanist to copy a Silumgar Sorcerer and have it exploit itself to counter that creature in time?
Sounds like it. Cool. Thanks guys!
lastmoonflower says... #1
It all depends on how "the stack" is ordered. Let's say Elite Arcanist is on the field with Fated Infatuation as its exile. If let's say a Shock were to target the Elite Arcanist you could respond and make a copy of the Elite Arcanist. Then the stack would resolve backwards, with the last effect to trigger triggering first, so you would get a token that's a copy on a creature you control. upon entering the battlefield the token's ETB effect if any would trigger and after that resolves the Shock would kill the original. Now if Elite Arcanist triggers first and Shock is cast in response Elite Arcanist would die before a token can be made. I hope that helps
May 3, 2018 5:14 p.m.