Deathtouch from beyond the grave
Asked by Lurac 7 years ago
Assume that my opponent has a pinger in play, like, say, Prodigal Pyromancer. He gives the pinger deathtouch, e.g. with Touch of Moonglove, and I have a conditional instant removal, say Swift Reckoning in hand.
I cast my removal in response when he tries to ping my creature. in this case, the pyromancer will die before the ping hits. My questions:
A) Does the Deathtouch from ToM still affect the ping, even as the pinger is no longer in play
B) Would it be the same case if the pinger had deathtouch printed on it?
C) What if the deathtouch was granted by a continuous effect, like Basilisk Collar or Archetype of Finality? As far as I can understand, that effect is bound to stop when the creature leaves play.
Panzerforge says... #2
Think of the ping like "fire and forget missile."
The Pyromancer launches the missile at you, loaded with Deathtouch warheads.
Your counter-radar sees him, and destroys the launcher after launching his missiles.
The missiles still travel to their intended target, despite the launcher being destroyed.
This analogy applies to a lot of these kinds of situations.
March 15, 2017 5:26 a.m. Edited.
To expand on Boza's answer, when an ability references information about its source but that source is no longer in the expected zone, it uses the last known information about that source as it was in that zone. So, in all 3 cases, the Prodigal Pyromancer is no longer on the battlefield as expected but the last known information used is that it had deathtouch. The full rule is:
"112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time wont affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone its expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists."
March 15, 2017 5:33 a.m. Edited.
Panzerforge says... Accepted answer #4
AND the non-analogy answer, from the MCR:
"112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, anyactivated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists."
March 15, 2017 5:34 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
It's important to note, for the first two answers, that the damage doesn't exist until the ability resolves. If Prodigal Pyromancer were to remain on the battlefield and simply lose deathtouch, the damage dealt would not be deathtouch damage. The game only "looks into the past" if the creature leaves play, in which case the game uses information about how the creature last existed on the battlefield.
March 15, 2017 8:21 a.m.
What Epochalyptik describes seems to be the key point for me as well, as the fact that abilities exist on the stack independent from their sources seems to be clear to the questioner here.
The concept of last known information is a different matter, though, which basically means that if a source would do something and has changed zones since it's activation, the exact qualities that object had when it was in that zone are used to determine the result of the ability (for a different explanation, refer to 112.7a quoted above).
This means that if the Pyromancer is destroyed, whether it's ability deals Deathtouch is based on whether it had Deathtouch when it changed zones. Therefore, A and B are very much synonymous in this case.
The way question C is phrased, it depends which creature they were talking about - Archetype of Finality's ability indeed only works as long as that creature is on the battlefield, so if you were to Swift Reckoning the Archetype (assuming it was also tapped), by the time the Pyromancer's ability resolves, it will not have Deathtouch anymore.
March 15, 2017 9:52 a.m.
I just have to say this forum is fantastic.
Panzerforge answered the question factually, but Epochalyptik gave the answer I actually needed.
Thanks guys!
Boza says... #1
Answer to all three is Yes, the creature still dies to the pinger, since abilities exist on the stack independant of their sources. You need something like Stifle to stop the actual ability.
March 15, 2017 4:35 a.m.