Counterspells prevent Casting?
Asked by DrkNinja 13 years ago
Ok so here's the scenario I cast Kozilak, and then my friend counters Kozilak. Is it considered cast? Casting is the act of tapping mana for a spell which he did, however the SPELL didn't resolve, the cast did. I may have this confused but I am curious. Does a counterspell also prevent the card from being cast?
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
Logically the answer must be no, since the card had to be cast to be countered in the first place.
You've essentially answered your own question by making the distinction between casting and resolving. Casting is the act of placing a spell on the stack, while resolving is the process of that spell having an effect and coming off the stack. While Kozilek, Butcher of Truth did not resolve, it was still cast.
October 9, 2011 4:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
rockdrummerz is incorrect.
These are the Comprehensive Rulebook glossary articles on countering.
701.5. Counter
701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesn't resolve and none of its effects occur. A countered spell is put into its owner's graveyard.
701.5b The player who cast a countered spell or activated a countered ability doesn't get a "refund" of any costs that were paid.
October 9, 2011 4:54 p.m.
rockdrummerz says... #4
obviously they don't get their mana back, they've already used it to attempt to cast the spell. 701.5a is basically what I've been telling my friend here, in an external conversation
October 9, 2011 4:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
I quoted it because it was part of the (brief) glossary entry for countering. However, 701.5a does not imply in any way that the spell was not cast, which is what you initially stated.
October 9, 2011 4:59 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #6
If Gatherer doesn't have anything to say on an issue, the next best thing is to check the Card Set FAQs on the Wizards of the Coast site. In this case the FAQ solves this problem very clearly by using Artisan of Kozilek as an example. And it happens regardless of whether the original spell resolves, and in fact the added effect will resolve before the original spell resolves.
October 9, 2011 7:33 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
When Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is cast, his ability triggers, and is put onto the stack right before players get priority again to play more spells and abilities. If your opponent counters Kozilek, it doesn't change the fact that his ability triggered and was put onto the stack. That triggered ability will eventually resolve, unless it's countered by some other effect.
October 9, 2011 7:40 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #8
When you counter a spell, you are targeting a spell that is on the stack, but not yet resolved. Cards are only placed on the stack after they are cast. From the MTG Comprehensive Rulebook:
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger on a spell being cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spells controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
Rules 601.2a-g describe the actions that must be taken before a spell is considered cast. Rule 601.2h states that any abilities that trigger on a spell being put onto the stack trigger at this time, thus proving that a spell is not put onto the stack until after it is cast, and thus cannot be targeted by a counterspell or counter ability until after on-cast triggers trigger.
October 9, 2011 8:59 p.m.
By that logic there are a large number of spells which cant be countered then. Many cards have text saying "When so and so is cast do X". Not only that but no Instant could ever be countered...
"Instants are one-time effects that go to the graveyard right after casting"
According to what you guys are saying above most non creature cards would only placed on the stack AFTER their effects. I dont think thats right because for a spell to be played and have ANY effect it must resolve. And before it resolves people have an opportunity to counter it.
Or to put it another way701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesn't resolve and none of its effects occur.
Kozileks draw 4 cards is and EFFECT clearly. And the above rule states that if the spell is cancelled NONE of the effects occur. Not some of its effects are cancelled.
As further evidence (though by no means proof) in the online game Magic the Gathering: Duels of the planeswalkers, when Kozilek is cast and it is countered 4 cards are not drawn.
October 12, 2011 10:53 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
You are incorrect on this one. Spells with on-cast abilities treat those abilities just like a permanent would treat a triggered ability. When Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is cast, an effect goes onto the stack above it which says "Draw four cards" and its controller is the player who cast Kozilek.
Countering Kozilek will not remove this ability from the stack, as per the following rule:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
The draw-four is not a part of the spell Kozilek, Butcher of Truth's effect. It is its own effect/ability, although it is put on the stack by the spell Kozilek, Butcher of Truth.
October 12, 2011 12:25 p.m.
Depends on how you define casting. As I understand it casting is signaling your intent to resolve a card (ie putting it on the stack). On cast cards dont have their effect before you play them out of your hand! Otherwise you cant counter instants at all.
Your definition of cast means this order of events
Cast - Effect - Goes on stack - Immediatly goes to graveyard
Theres no room to counter it -.- Ive never seen anyone play that way. Normally its...
Goes on stack - Counter opportunity - Resolves+Effect - Goes to graveyard
October 12, 2011 7:45 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
No. There is a difference between an on-cast effect and an on-resolution effect. Kozilek's on-cast ability will go onto the stack as a result of him being cast. When Kozilek resolves, he enters the battlefield. When his on-cast ability resolves, you draw four cards.
October 12, 2011 7:52 p.m.
The on cast effect on cards like Kozilek refers to HOW it is played not WHEN, because there are other ways that Kozilek can enter the battlefield apart from being cast. Such as with Elvish Piper .
If you summon kozilek with the Piper you put him on the battlefield but you do not get to draw 4 cards.
However if you cast kozilek you put him on the battlefield and draw 4 cards IF no one counters.
You have to follow all of"701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesn't resolve and none of its effects occur. A countered spell is put into its owner's graveyard."
Drawing cards is an effect so if kozilek is countered you cannot draw cards.
October 12, 2011 8:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
I see why you feel that way, but you're wrong. You're sticking to too narrow an interpretation of the rules. The resolution of Kozilek's draw ability is not dependent upon the resolution of Kozilek himself, and it a separate effect. You must specifically counter or exile the draw ability to make it not resolve. The draw ability is not an effect of the resolution of Kozilek. Countering a spell only stops the effect that spell would have had if it resolved.
October 12, 2011 8:46 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
There is only one definition of "Cast". From the Comprehensive Rules:
Cast: To take a spell from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect.
Kozilek's ability triggers after he is cast, while he's still on the stack, and the triggered ability as it exists on the stack is completely independent of the Kozilek spell also on the stack. Epochalyptik is correct.
October 12, 2011 10:05 p.m.
Cast: To take a spell from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect.
It specifically says "EVENTUALLY RESOLVE AND HAVE ITS EFFECT." So if you cast Kozilek you have to wait til it resolves before you get the effects of the card Kozilek.
701.5a To counter a spell or ability means to cancel it, removing it from the stack. It doesn't resolve and none of its effects occur.
Countering a spell clealy states that it stops all of the countered spells effects. Basically as though it were not cast. Its a counter spell not a kill target creature spell lol.
October 12, 2011 11:01 p.m.
KorApprentice says... #17
Once Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is cast, his on-cast ability exists INDEPENDENT of Kozilek himself. It is not an effect of Kozilek and is independent of Kozilek on the stack, meaning that if Kozilek were to leave the stack, i.e. BEING COUNTERED or resolving, the ability would not be affected and would continue to resolve unless it itself is countered by something like Trickbind or Stifle . Note also, that countering the ability does not counter Kozilek, which is further proof of its independence.
October 12, 2011 11:26 p.m.
Well calling someone a troll or a fool definantly IS trolling
October 13, 2011 12:33 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
Not really. Several people have explained it several times, all of us reputable sources of rules knowledge. Your interpretation of 701.5a is correct, but you need to differentiate between the effect of a spell and the effect of a triggered ability. The draw happens as the result of a triggered ability, and that ability exists independently of its source, as per 112.7a. The draw is not an effect of Kozilek as a spell. It is an entirely separate entity on the stack.
October 13, 2011 12:51 a.m.
Good for you troll. The ability is dependant on you playing/casting the card Kozilek. A counter negates that spell. But ignore the rules and play how you like. I cant stop you.
October 13, 2011 2:01 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #22
The definition of "Cast" quoted from the rules is meant to be understood in its most natural English meaning. "So that it will eventually resolve" is simply additional information, giving context for casting's relationship with other important elements of the game. Resolution is not a prerequisite for casting, because the game cannot look forward in time to see whether a cast spell is going to resolve.
601.2 in the Comprehensive Rules describes the process for casting a spell. 601.2a-g specifically describe the individual steps from announcement (a) to paying costs (g), and 601.2 concludes with the following:
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
So the triggered ability of Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is put onto the stack right before players get priority again. Countering Kozilek will not remove that triggered ability from the stack, in the same way that killing a creature with an ETB triggered ability (Skinrender , etc.) will not remove that ability from the stack.
October 13, 2011 9:36 a.m.
"601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority."
Ok that makes more sense :)
October 13, 2011 9:29 p.m.
Darth_knob says... #25
Look up decimator of the provinces. One of the rulings states "when you cast" trigger ability resolves before the spell cast resolves. So if you counter decimator of the provinces your creatures still get +2/+2 and trample and decimator never reaches the battlefield. Vise versa counter his "when cast ability" decimator reaches the battlefield but his when cast trigger does not go off.
March 16, 2017 12:49 p.m.
Darth_knob says... #26
Since this thread is from 2011 my answer may be a useless gesture. Day late dollar short.
March 16, 2017 1:01 p.m.
Well, at this point, I'd like to throw in the gatherer ruling that says: "Kozilek’s first ability triggers as you cast it, and that ability resolves before the spell itself. It resolves even if the spell is countered." Took 'em long enough tho. lol
rockdrummerz says... #1
yes. countering a spell means it was not cast.
October 9, 2011 4:49 p.m.