Countering bestow
Asked by thebigragu 10 years ago
Can you counter the bestow effect from say herald of torment. I was told you cannot counter that effect with either disdainful stroke or stubborn denial. Can someone please confirm.
thebigragu says... #2
Sorry about the formatting, but you are saying that BOTH of those spell would counter the bestow ability from herald of torment, correct?
February 15, 2015 8:17 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
An excerpt from the comprehensive rules for bestow:
Bestow [cost] means You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost. and If you chose to pay this spells bestow cost, it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant creature. These effects last until one of two things happens: this spell has an illegal target as it resolves or the permanent this spell becomes, becomes unattached.
In the case of Stubborn Denial, if cast for its bestow cost a spell has the type Enchantment but not the type creature and so is a valid target.
The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color. A cards mana cost is indicated by mana symbols near the top of the card. This means that Herald of Torment would not be a legal target for Disdainful Stroke but Cavern Lampad would.
February 15, 2015 8:18 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
My last paragraph was a bit unclear. Casting a spell for bestow does not change it's converted mana cost. So even when cast as a bestow spell Herald of Torment's CMC is 3.
February 15, 2015 8:20 a.m.
thebigragu says... #5
Ok so stroke is no good, but i had a Stubborn Denial in hand also with ferciouc active. That counters the bestow correct?
February 15, 2015 8:23 a.m.
thebigragu says... #6
Dumb ? but also in real life magic if someone forgets a trigger i.e. prowess then if it comes up later i can simply say "you missed the trigger" and prowess doesn't happen?
February 15, 2015 8:31 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
Stubborn Denial can never counter Herald of Torment. The ferocious clause states "counter that spell instead" meaning the spell with CMC 4 or greater that was targeted in the first part of the spell text. The ferocious just changes it from Daze to Counterspell for the targeted spell.
Triggers don't have to be acknowledged until they would have an impact on the game. So it is a bit sticky about when a trigger is "missed".
February 15, 2015 8:51 a.m.
thebigragu says... #8
Do you see how confusing this is? So you're saying that Stubborn Denial cannot counter Herald of Torment when it's being cast for it's bestow cost, which i thought was an enchantment aura. So if i have a hand of Stubborn Denial and Disdainful Stroke and my opponent bestows a creature he has with Herald of Torment then i have to let it resolve?
February 15, 2015 9:23 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #9
Wait, I messed up. I don't know all standard cards by name and for some reason thought you were asking about disdainful stroke.
Stubborn Denial with active ferocious is a hard counter for bestow spells.
Disdainful Stroke can at no time ever counter Herald of Torment no matter how it is being cast.
I am sorry for the confusion.
February 15, 2015 9:37 a.m.
First off, let's clear the confusions here. When you cast Herald of Torment with it's Bestow cost, it is an Aura, and not a creature anymore. It's a static ability to become Aura, so by the time it reaches the stack, it's an Aura, not a creature, and thus you cannot Disdainful Stroke it by any means.
Second, if your opponent cast a Herald of Torment (not with Bestow), you cannot counter it with a Disdainful Stroke since it's CMC is 3 and not 4+.
Third, Stubborn Denial has absolutely nothing to do with CMC. You can Stubborn Denial the Herald of Torment (only if your opponent casted with it's Bestow cost) and counter it, since it's an Aura and not a creature.
Bonus:If you have Ferocius active, by the time the Stubborn Denial resolves it will try to apply the additional effect, i.e. countering the spell. Even if you have Ferocius, you cannot target creature spells with it.
Summary:
Herald of Torment casted as a creature
- Stubborn Denial can't be used (the spell is a creature)
- Disdainful Stroke can't be used (the spell has CMC of 3)
Herald of Torment casted as Bestow
- Stubborn Denial can be used (the spell is not a creature). Goes to graveyard
- Disdainful Stroke can't be used (the spell has CMC of 3)
February 15, 2015 9:40 a.m.
filledelanuit says... #11
Stubborn Denial is a counterspell that can only target non-creature spells. If you have ferocious then it is a hard counter. If you do not then your opponent has to pay 1 to prevent it. Stubborn Denial can never target a creature spell. However it can target a bestowed creature. This is because when you cast a creature for it's bestow cost the spell isn't a creature it is an aura instead.
Disdainful Stroke can counter any spell with CMC four or greater. We determine CMC by looking at upper right corner of the card. The amount of mana symbols there is the CMC of the card. If the card has x in it's casting cost then you add the amount payed for X to the other mana symbols to get the CMC. Alternate costs, like bestow, and additional costs like kicker, do not change the CMC of a card.
Quick reference guide:
- Only non creature spells
- Can counter bestowed creatures
- Can only counter spells that normally cost at least 4 to cast
- Cannot counter Herald of Torment
February 15, 2015 9:47 a.m.
Phobophile says... #12
There's some misconstruing of information in this thread. I'll try and clear it up.
Your opponent has a creature on the battlefieldYou have a Disdainful Stroke and a Stubborn Denial in handyour opponent then casts Herald of Torment for its bestow cost.
Now, even though your opponent paid 5 mana for the bestow, this was an "alternate casting cost"; the mana cost of the card itself is STILL only 1BB (it's converted mana cost is '3'), so you cannot counter it with Disdainful Stroke.
However, because he cast it as an AURA, the Herald of Torment on the stack it is no longer a creature; It is an Enchantment - Aura. This is because the rules do not allow for any card to be both a 'creature' and an 'aura' at the same time. You can target it with your Stubborn Denial and try to counter it.
I hope that was clear enough.
February 15, 2015 9:48 a.m.
filledelanuit says... #13
@Phobophile It is possible to have something that is both a creature and an aura at the same time. You have to jump through some hoops but you can do it. What the game does is say that a creature cannot enchant another creature. So if you have an aura that become a creature it would stop enchanting the creature that it had been enchanting originally.
February 15, 2015 9:50 a.m.
thebigragu says... #14
@Phobophile thank you i got hosed at gameday apparently. Its incredible the scumbags in the magic community that gladly will take a win by cheating and gaining an advantage. Makes me not want to play. Been beating myself up about a misplay and i'll just chalk it up to scumbags.
February 15, 2015 10:15 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
@Phobophile, lordoftheshadows: A creature can become an Aura. Any creature that is also an Aura becomes unattached from whatever object it was enchanting (because creatures can't be attached to anything) and is put into its owner's graveyard (because Auras must be attached to something). However, corner cases aside, the rules for bestow state that the card is only ever an Aura or a creature as long as bestow is the only type-changing effect concerned.
@thebigragu: Don't be presumptuous. And if you misplayed, then you misplayed. Don't blame other people for it.
February 15, 2015 12:35 p.m.
Phobophile says... #16
Sorry. I should have been more pedantic; "a creature cannot be attached to another creature".
@thebigragu He may not have been cheating, he may have simply not known. There are a lot of rules in this game, card interactions and board states can get confusing. Next time you're unsure, don't be afraid to call the judge over and see if he can answer your question. While not infallible, we are generally good with the more confusing rules.
February 15, 2015 9:16 p.m.
thebigragu says... #17
I am never afraid to call a judge, but this situation was particular bullshit at a smaller gamdday event at a smaller store. My opponent did 100% not know the rules because he asked to read Disdainful Stroke because he knew i had it in hand from a previous Thoughtseize. I found that comical, told him that should know what the card does, and moments later someone informed it to him. He casts the bestowed Herald of Torment Then when i was told i could not stroke it (which is correct)Then I flipped up Stubborn Denial and asked if it works, and was told that doesn't counter it either, and then promptly lost match and round.
The "judge" at this store would have been a very incompetent employee working at the store, IMO calling him which would only have made things worse.
Also, the misplay I made was earlier in the game, nothing to do with this situation.
February 17, 2015 8:07 a.m.
thebigragu says... #18
@Phobophile @ Epochalyptik My opponent was all too happy to go along with the misinformation people were saying, and my problem is that he has no idea what is right and wrong but is all to quick to win on a very shady play. Frustrates me.
February 17, 2015 8:14 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
If you don't have a judge, or the judge you have is incompetent, request a citation from the rulebook.
And if your opponent doesn't know the rules, it's hardly fair to accuse him of being shady for accepting other players' explanations, even if those explanations are wrong. After all, you didn't provide a contradictory ruling, did you?
February 17, 2015 10:30 a.m.
thebigragu says... #20
No one "gave" any rulings it was fast and loose. I don't see how you cannot view what these players are isn't collusion.
February 17, 2015 3:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
Collusion requires that both people knowingly and intentionally acted together to bring about a result. You just stated that your opponent didn't know the rules, and that he went with the word of the other players, so that's pretty obviously not collusion.
Honestly, it sounds like you're just bitter about losing due to a bad ruling. Maybe that's a cheap shot, but blaming the opponent just because you lost to him is petty and vindictive.
February 17, 2015 7:59 p.m.
thebigragu says... #23
I know what collusion is. And yes it is a cheap shot. I try to play by the rules, and apparently some people need to bend them to win.
How would you feel if the other player is the person who popped up to mention that my plays were invalid also openly speaking about deals with prize credit and the mat throughout the day with my opponent, and that this shady biz is the norm and not the exception. I will admit it sounds like im just bitter, but i've seen garbage like that before and no one speaks up and im thinking about playing at a different store.
February 18, 2015 7:40 a.m.
That's why I only play casual. 8 people FFA, with one random person dying at the turn 2 and everyone laughing at his face (because we all know each other). People winning FFA with Standard decks from medium Legacy decks is also SO MUCH fun.
February 18, 2015 8:37 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
Maybe you should mention that first next time instead of leaving us to guess whether you're serious or not.
If the players are openly and purposefully discussing collusion in order to achieve a favorable prize split, then you need to bring that to the attention of the store owner or event organizer. If they're just talking about how cool the prizes are or what they need to do to make prize cutoffs, they aren't breaking any rules.
As for the environment, try to change it or find a new one.
February 18, 2015 10:10 a.m.
thebigragu says... #26
Remind me to come back here if i want condescending answers.....
February 18, 2015 11:14 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
The last answer wasn't meant to be condescending. If there's legitimate collusion going on, then you need to report that to the owner or organizer because that breaks the rules and is unfair to other players. However, you need to be sure that what they're doing actually meets the definition of collusion. Merely discussing the prizes or standings doesn't qualify.
You aren't exactly giving us the most complete information, so I'm doing what I can with what I know. I can't be sure what's actually happening at your LGS.
DJSeras says... #1
Please link all cards in your questions:
Herald of Torment,
Disdainful Stroke,
Stubborn Denial
A Enchantment Creature spell that is being used to bestow onto another creature is treated the same and any other enchantment-aura spell on the stack except for the fact that if its targeted creature stops being a legal target at any time then the Bestow spell with enter the battlefield as it's creature mode instead.
In terms of Disdainful Stroke, as long as the bestow spell has CMC 4 (The total mana value printed in the top right of the card) or more then that is a legal choice, the Bestow is an alternate cost you are paying.
in terms of Stubborn Denial, as long as the Enchantment Creature was cast for its bestow cost then that is a legal choice as well.
February 15, 2015 7:46 a.m.