Can you "fizzle" intentionally?
Asked by MickMacHugh2 8 years ago
I have Penance out and there are no black or red sources in play to target. I used Duress and found my opponent had 2 Thoughtsieze, I could only ditch 1 of them. Can I pay the cost of Penance of putting a card on top of my library, just to pay the cost and protect that card from his Thoughtsieze before he can play it, even though the damage prevention will fizzle since there is no target? Thanks!
merrowMania says... #2
Thanks @Busse :)
Yes? You are able to get the outcome that you want (protecting a card from Thoughtseize), but the happenings of the game are different than what you describe. Penance doesn't require targets. You choose a source on resolution. If you can't choose one, the effect does nothing, but it is also not countered/does not fizzle; because it does not use the word 'target.'
July 19, 2016 4:12 a.m. Edited.
merrowMania says... Accepted answer #3
Oh, for the actual question, no, you cannot cast/activate something if you cannot: pay all appropriate costs, declare all necessary targets, and follow all timing restrictions. You also cannot choose to have something be countered whenever you want.
July 19, 2016 4:20 a.m.
Never mind this post and the former explanation. Missed that Penance required a source.
Cheers people!
July 19, 2016 4:26 a.m. Edited.
nobu_the_bard says... #5
Penance must have a target (well, you choose a source, not exactly the same thing), but remember the source doesn't have to necessarily make sense, as long as it's legal. You can activate Penance and choose Thoughtseize itself, while it is on the stack before it has resolved, even though it doesn't do damage to you. It is a black source after all.
I know that's not what was asked, I just thought I'd mention it.
July 19, 2016 8:31 a.m. Edited.
Just to clarify things; Thoughtseize causes Loss of Life. Penance prevents damage, so unless there is another source that is black or red and is in play, you wouldn't be able to choose a valid source. Interesting cases is this, though!
Life loss and damage are no the same thing. Combat damage causes loss of life, for example.
July 19, 2016 8:56 a.m.
609.7. Some effects apply to damage from a source. For example, 'The next time a red source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn, prevent that damage.'
609.7a If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent; a spell on the stack (including a permanent spell); any object referred to by an object on the stack, by a replacement or prevention effect thats waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability thats waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in); or, for certain casual variant games, a face-up card in the command zone. A source doesnt need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice.
July 19, 2016 9:07 a.m. Edited.
nobu_the_bard says... #8
Thoughtseize doesn't need to deal damage. It can still be picked by Penance's controller because the only requirement is a black or red source be picked. Penance is worded such that it prevents damage of the source, but the source having an ability to deal damage isn't a requisite of selecting it. You could likewise select Tree of Perdition or Lim-Dul's Paladin even though they don't normally have an ability to deal damage to a player unaided (that they can potentially lower your life via their abilities is irrelevant in this case).
July 19, 2016 9:10 a.m.
"...A source doesnt need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice."
That solves the problem. Nice analysis btw.
July 19, 2016 9:32 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #10
Hahaha, I never noticed before, but that quote includes "certain casual variant games" and mentions the command zone. Quick, someone send Wizards a link to Epochalyptik's Pandora's Deckbox: Understanding Commander as a Social Format! :D
July 19, 2016 9:57 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
I think the accepted answer and subsequent discussion might confuse people, so let's make this clear: Yes, you are allowed to make the play described in the original post. This is only because Penance's ability doesn't target. You choose the source to prevent damage from as the ability resolves. If there are no valid choices at that time then the ability simply does nothing. For a situation where an ability does have one or more targets, you're not allowed to activate it if you can't choose enough legal targets.
Busse says... #1
Please link all the cards in your question:
Penance
Duress
Thoughtseize
Regards.
July 19, 2016 4:08 a.m.