Can I pay for a creatures activation cost using mana from ashnod's altar?
Asked by Vasseer 8 years ago
Can I sacrifice a creature after declaring the activation of it's ability using Ashnod's Altar to generate the mana to activate the ability? Specifically if I control Kaho, Minamo Historian with an instant of mana cost 2 exiled, can I declare the activation of her ability, declare x=2 and then sacrifice the kaho to Ashnod's Altar in order to pay the 2 mana to play the ability?
merrowMania says... #2
You would in fact be able to. Instead of floating the mana by activating the altar, you declare that you are activating Kaho's ability for x=2 then you pay the costs in any order (tap Kaho, then pay 2 mana, which can be acquired from saccing Kaho to the altar)
602.2. To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Only an object’s controller (or its owner, if it doesn’t have a controller) can activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise. Activating an ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that ability started to be activated (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.
602.2a The player announces that he or she is activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object that’s not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
602.2b The remainder of the process for activating an ability is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2b–i. Those rules apply to activating an ability just as they apply to casting a spell. An activated ability’s analog to a spell’s mana cost (as referenced in rule 601.2f) is its activation cost.
601.2b If...If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
December 27, 2015 9:58 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #3
@NecroPony: That's incorrect overall.
Ashnod's Altar has a mana ability, which means you have the option of activating it during the casting, activation, or resolution processes to pay for a cost when prompted.
If you announce Kaho, Minamo Historian's ability to begin the activation process, the ability is put onto the stack, decisions are made for it, and then you pay its costs. You may activate Ashnod's Altar's ability to pay for the cost, even if it means sacrificing Kaho, Minamo Historian. Therefore, it is possible to play the scenario as described in the question.
You are, however, correct in saying that you can't activate Ashnod's Altar's ability first and then activate an ability of the sacrificed creature second.
December 27, 2015 9:59 p.m.
merrowMania says... #4
I will try to cut it down more to a manageable length.
December 27, 2015 10 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
@merrowMania: Only rules 602.2a and 601.2h are directly relevant here; the rest is just an explanation of parts of the casting/activation process in general.
December 27, 2015 10:03 p.m.
merrowMania says... #6
Thanks for the tip, Epochalyptik :)
602.2a The player announces that he or she is activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object thats not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs cant be paid.
Example: You cast Altars Reap, which costs 1B and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost 1 less to cast. Because a spells total cost is locked in before payments are actually made, you pay B, not 1B, even though youre sacrificing the Familiar .
December 27, 2015 10:05 p.m. Edited.
Although to get the two mana you must first have to sacrifice the creature, right? I only know one situation that's close to this. Say you're playing dredge in legacy, you can't Lion's Eye Diamond then Breakthrough and pay part of the x in breakthrough off lion's eye diamond because part of the cost would be discarding your hand. Doesn't it say "The player pays the total cost in any order?
December 27, 2015 10:30 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #8
Unfortunately 601.2g also applies to this circumstance.
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, Mana Abilities). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
Since Kaho, Minamo Historian requires he be tapped to pay for the cost you can not sacrifice him when you have the chance to activate mana abilities, else you will not be able to tap him when it comes time to pay for the ability. Now Fang Skulkin, Golem Artisan or Isao, Enlightened Bushi could be sacrificed to Ashnod's Altar to pay for their own abilities.
December 27, 2015 10:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Not quite.
In this situation, you can activate Kaho, Minamo Historian's ability and then activate Ashnod's Altar's mana ability during the casting process when you are prompted to make a payment.
Lion's Eye Diamond's mana ability has a special restriction that states that you can only activate it any time you have priority, which means you can't activate it while casting, activating, or resolving something else. Therefore, you can't cast a spell from your hand and then pay for it using Lion's Eye Diamond's ability.
If, however, you had an ability that simply said "Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool," then you'd be able to cast Breakthrough and then, during the casting process, activate that ability to pay for Breakthrough. (Remember that announcing a spell or ability and putting it onto the stack is the first step of the casting/activation process, so Breakthrough isn't in your hand when you pay its cost.)
December 27, 2015 10:40 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
@Gidgetimer: Good catch. I didn't know that rule existed.
December 27, 2015 10:41 p.m.
Thanks for the help @Epochalyptik now just to figure out why my friend thats a judge disagrees with you. XD
CuteSnail says... #1
No, Kaho would not be around after the mana is generated. Anytime you could activate, Kaho would still need to be living.
December 27, 2015 9:22 p.m.