Can I copy a Flashback spell? Plus technical question with Nykthos.
Asked by sonicorigami 11 years ago
Let me set this up for a hypothetical situation. I have a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and four Island with a Meletis Guardian on the field plus a miscellaneous other cards for Devotion. Let's say I don't play a land card in my first main phase and skip combat. In my second main phase I tap two lands and tap Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx for 11 Devotion and add 11 mana to my mana pool. Then I spend that mana on Increasing Confusion paying 10 for X and one for the Island for a total of 11. I play Increasing Confusion mill for 10 and put it in my graveyard. Now, since I haven't played a land for my turn yet can I play another Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx from my hand, sac the tapped one on the battlefield, pay the remaining two mana, tap the new Nykthose Shrine to Nyx pay eight this time for the flashback cost, mill them for another 14, THEN spend the last three mana remaining in my mana pool to tap Meletis Guardian and copy the Flashbacked Increasing Confusion and mill them for 14 again for a total of 38 cards? I know it says be simple and concise, but I want to mainly focus on the casting a second Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx paying two, tapping, and copying the Flashback for Increasing Confusion . Can I even copy a Flashback spell?
Ok, I didn't add up all the mana costs in there, so I'm not sure if they all even out. But assuming you calculated the mana correctly, yes, what you just described is legal. Meletis Charlatan copies a spell, and flashback states that you are casting that card from your graveyard. Therefore, it counts as a spell. As far as Nykthos, shrine to nix, you can play the replacement any time in your 1st or 2nd main phase, provided you haven't played a land yet. So, in short, yes, you can do that.
February 3, 2014 7:52 p.m.
Yes, due to the new legendary rules you can play out a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and sac the one that you had on the board previously allowing you to essentially activate it twice in one turn.
Yes, you can copy a flashback.
A copied spell is simply placed on the stack, so isn't able to interact with the specific replacement effect of Increasing Confusion which looks to see where the spell was cast from. The flashbacked spell on the stack will double as per the effect, but the copied one will only mill for the X amount.
February 3, 2014 7:56 p.m.
kmcree 706.10. To copy a spell or activated ability means to put a copy of it on to the stack; a copy of a spell isnt cast and a copy of an activated ability isnt activated.
That copy isn't being cast so it won't interact with the doubling effect.
February 3, 2014 8 p.m.
I was referring to the fact that a flashback spell was a casted spell, and thus was a legal target for the copying ability. You are right, the copy will not be doubled.
February 3, 2014 8:03 p.m.
sonicorigami says... #6
So, playing Increasing Confusion the first time to mill 10. Then I play it again with the Flashback cost of 7X+U to mill 14 (from the doubling effect of the Flashback), that's 24 total at that moment. Now the tricky part is the copying with the Meletis Charlatan . So, let me see if I can get this straight. I can copy a Flashback spell, I'm copying a Flashback spell that I payed X for that doubles the cards milled. But I'm not copying the doubling effect, I'm copying the Flashback that doubles? So I should still be able to get the doubling effect as a result of copying the Flashback like I payed 14 for X. Someone apparently cast Increasing Confusion on me.
February 3, 2014 8:26 p.m.
Increasing Confusion cast from hand where X = 10. Your opponent mills 10.
Increasing Confusion flashbacked from graveyard X = 7. The spells sees that it was cast from the graveyard so your opponent mills 14.
Increasing Confusion copy from the X=7 flashback. The copy just sees itself as being the spell as is. Your opponent mills 7.
What's key is to not confuse or shorthand that the value of X ever changes, because it doesn't. The copy doesn't care where the spell came from or was cast, it's just essentially a copied version of the card placed on the stack.
February 3, 2014 8:32 p.m.
When you are coping any spell with flashback, you are copying the spell, not where the spell came from. In this case, the copy will look to see if it was cast from the graveyard, and it will see that it was not, so it will not double.
February 3, 2014 8:36 p.m.
sonicorigami says... #9
But the only way I can use Flashback is if it's from the graveyard, where it would go after the first time I cast it. Tap Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx , cast Increasing Confusion , put it in the graveyard, play the second Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and tap it, cast Increasing Confusion from the graveyard for the Flashback cost. That would be the order to do things in.
February 3, 2014 8:55 p.m.
sonicorigami says... #10
Ok. That makes sense. It doesn't see/care the card as being from the graveyard. Just that it was cast from somewhere, anywhere. Got it.
February 3, 2014 8:58 p.m.
sonicorigami says... #11
Now, something else just hit me. When I cast the card for the Flashback cost, before I copy the card with Meletis Charlatan , does the Flashback effect happen? As in: I cast it for the Flashback, it resolves to mill for double the cards, THEN can I copy the spell, for just X? How does that happen on the stack? I know First In, Last Out. So on the stack it would be Flashback first, copy second, and the copied spell would resolve first, milling for just X, and then the Flashback would resolve milling for 2X?
February 3, 2014 9:06 p.m.
Or more specifically the copy does indeed care, it's just that the copy itself doesn't come from graveyard - even if it's copying a spell that was cast from there. Each spell is a separate entity on the stack. One of them recognizes that it was flashebacked from the graveyard. One of them just sees that it's a copy of this spell, but it wasn't cast from any origin it was simply copied.
February 3, 2014 9:12 p.m.
Yep. You would flashback Increasing Confusion and while it's on the stack copy it with Meletis Charlatan . That would put the copied version on top, which would resolve first and then the flashback one.
February 3, 2014 9:14 p.m.
sonicorigami says... #14
So, it'd be 10 from the first cast, 14 from the Flashback cast, and 7 from the copied cast which would equal 31. Which isn't bad. The stars would just have to be aligned the right way for this to happen. I have had it where I was able to copy a Traumatize with a Meletis Charlatan . My friend quit after that.
February 3, 2014 9:20 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #15
I'm not going to address the issue at hand as I think it's getting sufficient coverage, I just wanted to say: next time please, consider posting this kind of thing as two separate questions, as the Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx question and the copying flashback question aren't directly related. It makes the conversations easier to follow when they're separate threads :)
Thanks!
February 3, 2014 10:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
Please remember to select an answer once your question has been sufficiently addressed.
February 3, 2014 10:16 p.m.
sonicorigami Just my two cents but since you're doing all this in the same step it would be smarter to just float all the mana from the first Nykthos, play the second Nykthos and float those mana then cast Increasing Confusion for X=0 to get it to graveyard. At this point you should have 21 floating mana. Then you flashback Increasing Confusion for X=17 which drops your mana to 3. Then you copy the flashbacked spell which still has X=17. This would make your opponent mill 17*3=51 cards.
sonicorigami says... #1
Sorry for most of that, I didn't get the option to fix my mistakes. It's not Meletis Guardian. It's Meletis Charlatan .
February 3, 2014 7:48 p.m.