Blade of Selves + Sundial of the Infinite
Asked by DarkMagician 6 years ago
If I attack with a creature equipped with Blade of Selves then activate Sundial of the Infinite with the exile trigger on the stack will the tokens stick around permanently or will they exile at the end of the next combat phase?
DarkMagician says... #2
BlueScope I wasn't sure because it doesn't distinctly say at the end of the current combat phase (though it does seem logical). Abilities that say at end of turn trigger at the end of every turn so Sundial can't permanently stop them unlike abilities that specify at the beginning of the NEXT end step. That's what threw me off.
October 11, 2017 6:20 a.m.
To put it in a different way, it's a single effect that's basically "Create tokens and destroy them after combat", not "Create tokens" and "At the end of combat, destroy all tokens created by Blade of Selves". In other words, the ability only cares about the currently created combat step, and the currently created tokens, not anything that happened before - it doesn't account for the possibility that you ended the turn, or Stifle'd the ability.
October 11, 2017 8:17 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #4
I'm fairly certain you have to handle this the same way you would "beginning of the next end step" effects, which is to say, activate Sundial while the exile Delayed Triggered Ability is on the stack, exiling the ability.
This still gets you you're desired result, you keep the tokens forever, and skip your post-combat main phase.
October 11, 2017 1:51 p.m.
@Tyrant-Thanatos: The difference compared to "at the beginning of the next end of combat step" (for comparison) is that if you were to activate Sundial in the combat damage step (the step before the end of combat step), the delayed triggered ability would trigger in the next end of combat step, which is likely on the next player's turn. This is why you would have to end the turn in response to the ability, because then it triggered and just won't resolve.
With Myriad, it specifically refers to this combat's end step - you can end the turn any time before the ability resolves, and you will get to keep the created tokens indefinitely, because the ability will only ever trigger at the end of the current combat [phase].
October 12, 2017 5:33 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
@BlueScope: Myriad doesn't specifically refer to this combat's end of combat step. As in the rule you quoted above, it just says "at end of combat". If you use Sundial of the Infinite before the delayed trigger goes onto the stack then the tokens will be exiled at the beginning of the next end of combat step. The result comes from the following rules:
511.2. Abilities that trigger "at end of combat" trigger as the end of combat step begins. Effects that last "until end of combat" expire at the end of the combat phase.
603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once - the next time its trigger event occurs - unless it has a stated duration, such as "this turn."
October 12, 2017 10:04 a.m.
@Rhadamanthus: Hmm, interesting... in that case, Tyrant-Thanatos was correct with their assumption.
I'm aware of the existance of those rules, however the phrasing unless it has a stated duration, such as "this turn" is surprisingly exclusive to me (not that that's a bad thing, as it's rather clear). Thanks for pointing that out!
October 12, 2017 11:06 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
If I remember correctly that's to cover resolving spells and abilities that establish delayed triggers for events that might happen multiple times over the course of a turn (like a creature dying or something being dealt damage, etc.). Right now my internet access is being restricted by a work firewall so I'm having trouble accessing the sites that would let me easily look up and find examples of those kinds of effects.
October 12, 2017 1:38 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Here are a few examples: Death Frenzy, Glimpse of Nature, Hunter's Insight, etc.
October 12, 2017 7:47 p.m.
FatFreddiesCat says... #10
Just to clarify one thing, will damage still be assessed or with the Sundial stop the turn before assessment of damage? Sorry, I should be able to figure this out, but....
August 15, 2022 10:46 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
FatFreddiesCat: Only if the turn actually gets to the combat damage step of combat before Sundial of the Infinite is activated. In this example the question is about activating Sundial during the end of combat step, meaning yes, the combat damage step has happened.
If you have a follow-up question to an old Q&A topic, it's best to start a new question topic so more people will see it. With the way this site works, adding a new comment to something doesn't make it float to the top of the list, so for something as old as this the only users who would know about your question are the ones who are still subscribed to the original topic (usually because they commented in it, like I did).
BlueScope says... #1
Yes, since the tokens won't be exiled at the end of every combat, but only at the end of the combat step in which they were created (because that's what the ability that created them specifies), read rules below, sundialing that trigger will let you keep them indefinitely.
October 11, 2017 5:21 a.m.