Abilities triggered by casting spells, tapping a permanent, abiliti's source...
Asked by ThiagoMaia 13 years ago
Hello, I was playing MTG this afternoon and some questions came up with my friends, I believe I know the answers to all of them, but my friends think I'm wrong, so I would like to get some confirmation and some rules reference please.
First, when an ability triggers when a spell is cast the triggered ability is put above or below the spell that was cast?
For example, if I control a lys-allana-hunt-master, and I cast a Essence Warden how would the events take place? and where is the rule for that?
Second, when a permanent's activated ability includes tapping that permanent, can it be tapped in response of that permanent being tapped for the ability?
For example, if I control a Prodigal Pyromancer and my opponent has a tomb-magnet, I declare I am tapping my Pyromancer to give 1 damage to my opponent, can he in response tap it so that the abiity is countered?
And last, when I activate an ability and the source of the ability is removed from the battlefield in response for some reason, is the ability countered or does it stay there?
For example, I have a Karn Liberated and I use it's +4 ability, and my opponent in response of that ability bounces Karn with Boomerang does the ability stay there or not?
Little challenge for you right Epochalyptik?
if you control both, you choose in which order the two effects go onto the stack.
On the second part, if you tap Prodigal Pyromancer , the effect is on the stack before the Tumble Magnet effect. The tap effect will resolve first however the burn effect has already been placed upon the stack. the Tumble Magnet is tapping an already tapped creature.
the same thing happens in the attack step. there is no use using Deluge after the attack has been declared because the attack is already happening and the creatures are already tapped.
August 4, 2011 5:53 p.m.
the short version of that is: tapping doesn't remove abilites from the stack, only countering the abilities removes them from the stack.
August 4, 2011 5:56 p.m.
ThiagoMaia says... #4
The first i didn't know interesting...
The second I knew that but I need some rules refference that I can't find...
August 4, 2011 5:59 p.m.
mozerdozer says... #5
Above is incorrect. On the first thing, you cast the spell, then the triggered ability is put on the stack. No, tapping the Pyromancer is part of his ability cost thus it can not be responded to by tapping. Abilities are independent of their source, so the +4 ability will still resolve HOWEVER sometimes the ability will do nothing if the source is removed. FOr example if use the Pyromancer's ability and they respond with a Doom Blade , when his ability resolves, he will already be in the graveyard, and thus cannot deal damage.
August 4, 2011 6:06 p.m.
mozerdozer says... #6
Above is incorrect. On the first thing, you cast the spell, then the triggered ability is put on the stack.
No, tapping the Pyromancer is part of his ability cost thus it can not be responded to by tapping.
Abilities are independent of their source, so the +4 ability will still resolve HOWEVER sometimes the ability will do nothing if the source is removed. For example if use the Pyromancer's ability and they respond with a Doom Blade , when his ability resolves, he will already be in the graveyard, and thus cannot deal damage.
August 4, 2011 6:06 p.m.
Actually, Arrzarr is incorrect.
Essence Warden is not officially cast until it is on the stack. Then, after it is already on the stack, Lys Alana Huntmaster triggers and the ability goes on the stack above Essence Warden .
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2ag are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spells controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
Tapping Prodigal Pyromancer is part of the cost of activating it's ability. Thus, by the time your opponent can activate Tumble Magnet to tap Prodigal Pyromancer , it will already be tapped and Tumble Magnet will not affect it.
Similarly, if your opponent activates Tumble Magnet to tap your Prodigal Pyromancer , you can activate Prodigal Pyromancer 's ability in response.
602.1a The activation cost is everything before the colon (:). An abilitys activation cost must be paid by the player who is activating it.
August 4, 2011 6:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #8
Your first question only requires a basic understanding of the stack. When a spell is cast, it is put onto the stack and its costs are paid, as per the following rule:
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 716, Handling Illegal Actions). Announcements and payments cant be altered after theyve been made.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object thats not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, Timing and Priority. * The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack . It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Therefore, your Essence Warden would be a creature spell on the stack. Then, all triggered abilities which went off as you cast that spell would go on the stack. Since the Warden has not yet resolved, it will still be on the stack and therefore the abilities would be on top of it. These abilities go onto the stack as a state-based action, before any player gets priority again and before any spells resolve.
As for the second question, the payment of a cost, whether it's an activation cost, casting cost, or cost to attack, does not use the stack and cannot be responded to. Once the Prodigal Pyromancer is tapped as part of the payment of the activation cost, it is already tapped and the ability is on the stack. Your opponent can activate his or her Tumble Magnet targeting the Pyromancer, but it won't change anything.
If your opponent wants to prevent you from activating the Pyromancer at a certain time, he or she can Tumble Magnet it at an earlier point in the game, but you can respond by activating the ability.
August 4, 2011 6:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
mozerdozer's example is incorrect as well. Abilities on the stack exist independently of their sources. You cannot stop the ability of Prodigal Pyromancer by killing the Pyromancer - you must counter the ability itself.
August 4, 2011 6:12 p.m.
Actually mozerdozer, you are incorrect about Prodigal Pyromancer and Doom Blade .
Note the following rule:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time wont affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone its expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
Even if Prodigal Pyromancer is removed from the battlefield before the ability resolves, it still deals the damage.
August 4, 2011 6:13 p.m.
As for the Karn Liberated scenario, it is the same as the Prodigal Pyromancer scenario. Once the ability is on the stack, removing the source does not remove the ability from the stack.
August 4, 2011 6:18 p.m.
Sorry, I misread the status in the question, I was thinking that both were in play, like having 2 Glint Hawk Idol s in play and casting an artefact. my fault.
August 4, 2011 6:26 p.m.
ThiagoMaia says... #13
Told ya it would be little challenge...
Thanks all for the answers, hope the people who have answered incorrectly learned it.
Thanks for the rules references.
August 4, 2011 6:26 p.m.
ThiagoMaia says... #14
Also, I still don't have the rules for the second question... Is it the same as the third?
August 4, 2011 6:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
The scroll speed of the rules PDF does not keep up with my motivation.
Speaking of which, the comprehensive rules PDF can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20110617.pdf
August 4, 2011 6:31 p.m.
I dislike delving into there unless the fate of a game rests upon it...probably explains a lot.
August 4, 2011 6:32 p.m.
There are a lot of rules which apply to number two (they are contained in rules 601 and 602).
Essentially, tapping Prodigal Pyromancer is a cost to activate the ability, and costs must be paid before it goes on the stack and can be responded to.
August 4, 2011 6:37 p.m.
xxxxxxCronoxxxxxx says... #18
as has probly been said before already
1st triggered abilitys go onto the stack above what triggered it and resove before the thing that triggered it
2nd tapping is a cost to activate an ability and just like spells when you tap the mana or sac a creature to play the spell it already on the stack an its to late to stop the player from playing the spell,
and as long as the ability or some other ability does not say other wise you can activate an ability any time you could cast an instant
3rd just like a spell once an ability is on the stack the only way to stop it is by removing it from the stack by countering it or somthing
4th this might not have been mentioned but just like a spell, if there is no legal target for an ability then you can not activate the ability
ThiagoMaia says... #1
Sorry for the misspelled cards: Lys Alana Huntmaster Tumble Magnet
I'm not native at english...
August 4, 2011 5:48 p.m.