Elvish Piper and "Casting"
General forum
Posted on Jan. 29, 2013, 5:07 p.m. by brcap
Elvish Piper 's ability reads: "you may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefeild"
does this constitute casting? I'm wondering because some creatures have abilities activated through being "cast", for example Dread Cacodemon
Now, i understand "casting" is paying the manna cost and putting it on the stack. While you don't pay the creatures converted manna cost, per se; the piper still puts the card from your hand onto the stack, as it can still be countered, and it's a mana ability so obviously a manna cost is payed.
Is casting that ridgid, or is essentially: attemping to put a card onto the battlefeild. ???
anyone know the answer to this?
Rhadamanthus says... #3
Elvish Piper doesn't move a creature card from your hand to the stack. It does exactly what it says it does, which is to put the card from your hand onto the battlefield. This isn't casting a spell, and effects that care about spells being cast won't count it. A Dread Cacodemon put onto the battlefield this way won't do anything.
Elvish Piper 's ability can't be countered by an effect that says it counters spells, because it's not a spell. It's an activated ability, and there aren't many effects in the game that can counter it (Trickbind and Voidslime are a couple examples).
A mana ability isn't an ability that costs mana, it's an ability that makes mana. Elvish Piper doesn't have any mana abilities, and the cost you pay to activate its ability isn't a cost being paid for casting a spell.
January 29, 2013 5:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
@acbooster: Nitpicking on terminology, triggered abilities and activated abilities are different, and the game definitions for activating and triggering are therefore also different. Abilities that trigger on casting will trigger.
January 29, 2013 6:23 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
@brcap: Your definition of casting is a bit too narrow. The casting process does not mandate that a spell's mana cost be paid. Spells cast for free (i.e. without paying their mana costs) are still cast. Effects can also cause you to cast something (e.g. Isochron Scepter ). As Rhadamanthus said, Elvish Piper doesn't put a card onto the stack. Additionally, not everything put onto the stack is cast. Copies of spells are a prime example; copies made by effects like Reverberate are not cast; they are simply created on the stack.
January 29, 2013 6:27 p.m.
Thanks everyone
I was confused as to the definition of mana abilities, that's good to know.
Though I was aware that the ability of the piper can't be counterspelled, and that it could however be countered by relatively rare cards. Though, the fact that it can be countered must necessarily meean it's put on a stack, no? It would have to, or it would resolve before it could be countered.
can anyone quote a rule on what consititutes casting?
can anyone quote an official rule?
January 30, 2013 8:11 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
Yes, the Piper's ability is put onto the stack, but the creature isn't. When you activate the ability, it goes onto the stack and everyone gets a chance to respond before it resolves. Killing Piper won't take the ability off of the stack, and no one knows what creature you're going to put onto the battlefield until the ability resolves and you actually do it.
The section of rules on casting spells is rather long, and quoting it here would get kind of ugly. I'll give the full text of the first and last rules of the section and summaries of the rest.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after theyve been made.
601.2a [Announce it and move it from your hand to the stack]
601.2b [If necessary, make decisions about modes, alternative costs, optional additional costs, and the value of X]
601.2c [If necessary, choose a set of legal targets]
601.2d [If necessary, make decisions about dividing/distributing an effect among the targets]
601.2e [Calculate the total cost of the spell]
601.2f [You get a chance to activate mana abilities]
601.2g [Pay the total cost of the spell]
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
January 30, 2013 9:25 a.m.
I gave a quick read of the rules, at least section 601 (casting spells) and 602 (activated abilities).
Casting (previously termed "playing")
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve ...
Mana costs can be zero, or rendered zero (Isochron Scepter 's a decent example, but the 'copy' aspect might confuse things..). In "you may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefeild" It's implicit in the Piper that no mana cost is payed, in practical effect, rendering it zero. It could have easily read "you may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefeild without paying it's mana cost" but that might just been redundant. It is put on the stack, as it can be countered, and it's aim is to resolve.
You could argue the language of "cast" was specifically ommitted from the card to balance it's effects a little. But from the above, it seems to fit well enough with "casting".
I would have said Casting is pretty much anything, but you raise a good point Epochalyptik about copies.
So my general impression from reading the rules is that: Cards (that is, physical cards, or intangible copies of the card itself) are cast. Abilities or copies of spells (a copy of the spell itself, not the card ) are not cast. rule 706.10. "To copy a spell or activated ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn't cast and a copy of an activated ability isn't activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it."
Characteristics are copied, not the card, so it's not cast.
Piper of course has nothing to do with copies or a spells "Characteristics" - I'd say it casts cards unless anoyone can point out something else.
January 30, 2013 9:53 a.m.
"the Piper's ability is put onto the stack"
That's an excellent point
January 30, 2013 9:56 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
So are you starting to see the distinction now? "Casting" is a very specific thing in the game and follows a specific structured process. Elvish Piper doesn't cast anything, it just throws a creature card onto the battlefield.
January 30, 2013 10 a.m.
I agree with you. that was the piece i was missing.
If the creature you were trying to play could be counterspelled, you could make the argument that Piper cast it. But you can't, because it's not on the stack, the piper's ability is.
Looks like Artisan of Kozilek and Dread Cacodemon are comming out of my piper deck.
oh well, Dread Cacodemon sounded too much like a pokemon anyway...
acbooster says... #2
Elvish Piper doesn't say to cast the creature, so I'm guessing that it's not considered casting. For a comparison, Cipher reads to cast a copy of the ciphered spell, so abilities that activate upon a cast would activate.
January 29, 2013 5:12 p.m.