[Community Discussion]: The Counterfeiting Situation
General forum
Posted on Jan. 13, 2014, 3:59 a.m. by Epochalyptik
I am sorry to bump the featured thread about hubs out of the queue so quickly, but this demands attention.
By now, I'm sure many of you have heard about the serious counterfeiting operation that was exposed a few days ago. Chas Andres wrote a strong and well-reasoned synopsis and analysis here, and you should all read it.
What does this mean for the future of the game? This kind of operation is no joke compared to the fakes the market has seen in the past. This is a legitimate problem, and it needs a legitimate response. But what is that response? What impact does something like this have on our game?
According to Andres, the counterfeiters have already been approached by the police. But damage has already been done. Before, there were comparatively few players who could even tell the difference between Revised and Unlimited let alone between a fake Mox and a real one. With the introduction of such accurate and large-scale counterfeiting, what happens now? These fakes are out there, and they're filtering down to the local level through online distribution. What kinds of problems does this pose for local players? What happens if a player unknowingly acquires a counterfeit, enters an event, gets deckchecked, and gets penalized for having counterfeit cards? The risk for players has increased, and the burden on merchants and judges has increased. Judges are already making it clear that policy should be aimed at treating fakes as proxies and minimizing the loss to the player while still upholding the integrity of the game.
Andres is careful to argue that MTG will survive. This is a resilient game, after all. But these kinds of problems must be dealt with immediately if we are to continue to adapt.
Always somebody out to scam others, what a wonderful world.
January 13, 2014 4:36 a.m.
WotC needs to reprint the Reserved list with all those holofoils! weeeeeee!~
kidding aside, what's troubling for me is some (or a bulk?) of these fake cards were created by a former Cartamundi employee
January 13, 2014 6:23 a.m.
I mean, they obviously don't try too hard to make counterfeiting impossible. It's not necessarily hard, you just use difficult to reproduce watermarks and holo symbols.
I know that this isn't relevant directly but in the UK money is regularly reprinted with new designs so that counterfeiters have to update all their equipment every few years. It keeps them on their toes and stops fakes from flooring ng the market. This isn't dont with US currency, given that the dollar bill hasn't changed in about 100 years. Now I know this wouldn't work with Magic, but the point is that there ARE ways to update the printing process to make fakes extremely hard to produce
That being said anyone with enough determination and budget, counterfeits can be made of anything. Especially when it's in China, where they don't care about Western markets. These guys won't even be arrested because the Chinese don't arrest their own citizens for overseas crime. If they ARE based in China, it's extremely worrying.
January 13, 2014 7:16 a.m.
Sorry, on my phone. Typo in second paragraph should say - stops fakes from flooding the market. This isn't done with US currency.....
January 13, 2014 7:17 a.m.
Ug...
I knew nothing about this, and this makes me so sad. I go to my LGS about three or four times a year, and yet that is the only place I now trust. This new wave of counterfeits is making me really sad. Thank god I barely play Legacy and don't play Vintage at all.
January 13, 2014 7:19 a.m.
I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened sooner. Magic cards are essentially just cardboard slips with artwork on them. The nature of their business hinges on the fact that the cards themselves are easy and cheap to produce.
The real product behind the product is the mechanics and intellectual work that goes into making the game play what it is. I'm a big fan of seeing Wizards get paid for that brain work. I'm hoping this is something that the community can work through. But, the Genie might be out of the bottle.
All of that said, I can see a valid market in the secondary for high quality illegit proxies. It would allow players try before they buy at the kitchen table. But, again, I'd like to see Wizards collect the credit and the currency for that product as well. Proxy or not, these are their ideas and they should get paid for them.
January 13, 2014 8:55 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #9
Holy crap! If that Polluted Delta was indeed a fake, a scary future could be ahead of us. Also since counterfeits have been distributed at major events since 2012, that's worry some.
I am confidant that what I have currently is legit (as I haven't ordered singles in a very long time), however I will be wary in the future. What online retailers will be trustworthy other than SCG? Will this mean the end for TCG.Player? Also, I wonder if companies authenticating the cards will then be passed onto the consumer...
January 13, 2014 10:12 a.m.
Perhaps Wizards could print proxies, label them as such (without it being a distraction to the art) and sell them as legit products, Then local stores could decide not to give prizes if you were using them and kitchen table players would be happy because it lets them try things before investing an obscene amount of money in a play-set of something. I don't buy into the sharpie argument, because the artwork and the feel is part of the draw to me, but I would probably buy proxy cards from Wizards just because I don't have the cash to buy the real thing, or the skill to use them in big time tourneys.
January 13, 2014 10:14 a.m.
Wizards won't ever start condoning the use of proxies because it's bad for heir business as far as theyre concerned. All they can do is use different printing techniques for different sets. This would stop counterfeiters from being able to universally fake all cards.
January 13, 2014 10:18 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #12
There was a 'proxy set' that Wizard's printed, called the Collector's Edition. For not being tournament legal, the cards still fetch a pretty penny on the secondary market:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/373
January 13, 2014 10:19 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #13
I may just be a total moron, but I don't exactly see how this effects Wizards at all... Apparently the problem has been spotted and stopped, so there's no risk of new cards being let loose (I assume), and any new card would be sealed up in the new set packaging, which apparently (after a quick run through of the site that the counterfeits were sold on) wasn't happening on the counterfeits.
From what I could tell, they moved their product as though it was a bulk purchase of already opened cards. WotC's profits come from sealed product, and this is not that. The only thing that I can see this counterfeit hurting is the secondary market, which WotC has been stated to not actually give a rat's behind about. The secondary market doesn't need to be what it is for the game to be successful. Sure, collecters are going to be bummed out by this, but can someone please explain to me how this directly effects WotC as everyone here seems to believe?
January 13, 2014 10:22 a.m.
I'm going to put this out there and let you folks debate/decide the validity of this. Last monday we got the news of the holofoils and new frame, 2 days later we get news of this. I find this a little conspicuous and very interesting. WioTC obviously has a plan in place for the future of magic and anything it's able to reprint at this time. I do not know where this will lead in terms of older cards.
But the way the news was dropped makes me think WoTC was aware of this current Industrial scale operation before it became public. I do wonder if WoTC will use this opportunity to reprint the reserved list (as mentioned above), but I doubt it, the only reasons they could use to safeguard the value of existing collections or claim to maintain the card legitimacy for tournaments.
January 13, 2014 10:25 a.m.
Also, I do think this will force may players to educate themselves to tell what card is what.
January 13, 2014 10:26 a.m.
ThatBlueMage The loss of trust in the brand will be the problem that hurts them the most. Without people willing to buy cards on the secondary market, a lot of stores will stop supporting the product in general and/or close up shop, making fewer locations WoTC will be able to sell it products.
The fact is the belief in the brand and quality of the cards and strength of the secondary market keeps WoTC selling magic sealed products. Magic almost died once because of the loss of trust with the chronicles/4th ed printings and the reserved list saved it.
January 13, 2014 10:30 a.m.
deathtouch_roadrunner says... #17
If magic turns into a game a where you buy expansion sets of known cards for $20 - $50 (instead of using the booster pack/box model) because of something like this I won't be sad. (The fact that you can just order complete sets for $200-ish shows that it's possible. If production costs are really ~$0.08 a card, then splitting a set into 6 pieces and selling them for $20 a piece or something is totally doable.) Keep in mind that if the cards can be devalued in this way there won't be any incentive to counterfeit.
However, I don't put any stock in the intrinsic value of my cards to begin with and always get lots of hassle for frequently playing my test decks unsleeved. Most people will view the above as bad because it while annihilate the resale market.
January 13, 2014 10:31 a.m.
When considering methods of stopping/preventing counterfeiting, it is important to remember that so long as cards that can be counterfeited are in circulation, those cards will continue to be counterfeited.
This means that any printing technique such as watermark and/or holo-symbol, etc, will not prevent previous versions of cards from being counterfeited... also, it will only delay the counterfeiting of new cards until the counterfeiters develop the proper techniques.
i.e.: Power 9, Duels, Fetches, etc... will always be able to be copied using their current print methods, and new cards will eventually be able to be copied as well.
This is why when a country prints new currency, banks also begin removing previous notes. - Removing (and destroying) the versions that can be copied, and replacing them with ones which are not as easily copied, is the only method of combatting counterfeiting.
This would not be a feasible concept for WoTC to undertake. It would require making new versions of each cards previously printed, and asking people to send back their originals to obtain replacements. - Essentially having to reprint every card with any value at their own cost. - Workable with currency as it changes hands from the public to banks on a very rapid basis... not so workable for CTCG's.
Even if they did devise an inexpensive method of doing this, it would only last until the counterfeiters develop the method to copy the new cards... then it would have to be done all over again.
Note: I'm actually quite surprised it has taken this long for counterfeiters to copy the "Blue Paper" and "bend test" features.
January 13, 2014 10:47 a.m.
This is just my two cents, but it could be that the whole point of this counterfeit operation is to devalue the cards, to the point where WotC will give up on the game and stop printing it. The article said that the counterfeiters needed a knowledge of the actual workings of the games and manufacture of the cards. It could be that a pissed player or former employee is on some sort of vendetta. Well that's my conspiracy theory.
January 13, 2014 10:51 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #20
Counterfeits are pretty bad for their business, Wizards has shown they take the secondary market very seriously, probably because secondary market merchants are some of their best customers. It is because of the secondary market the Reserved list exists in the first place, and because of the secondary market that they didn't print as much Modern Masters as there was demand (in order to avoid overwhelming supply flooring prices).
They probably know more about the counterfeiting going on than anyone but the counterfeiters themselves. It would not surprise me if they have one or more specialists (probably an outside company contracted than in-house; this is usually how other big businesses do it, they contract specialists) to investigate these sorts of things on a regular basis. They aren't in the business of calling attention to this kind of thing, though, saying "we're seeing a lot of counterfeiters and are worried" and potentially distressing their clientele.
When I worked in Loss Prevention for a big box retailer, I didn't go around telling customers how common shrink was, or what causes it, or anything that might give the public the idea that it is increasing or anything, regardless of the fact (invariably, a news report like this makes people think "it is becoming more common" whether or not it's true). When we'd introduce new measures to combat it, we wouldn't go into detail about WHY if it could be helped. I didn't tell people the various hat/cellphone tricks you can use to fool security, for example.
I really would like to see some new guides for spotting counterfeits, in the light of these reports. It's probably only a matter of time before you have to learn to distinguish "fake wear" on your moxes from "real wear" like with counterfeit bills or clothes.
@ChiefBell
Actually you might not be aware, if you are a UK native, but the US has been phasing in new paper and coin currency designs over the last five years or so, as a matter of fact. The designs are a lot different. They even changed the design on pennies a short time ago, which had barely any changes for the last 50 years.
January 13, 2014 11:06 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #21
I feel personally that counterfit magic card has always been easy by making blanks out of foils and using real magic cards and either clear celphain or thin high quality paper and printer to make the fake or proxy if you will. It is because of the huge increase in demand in the last 5 years as the popularity of the game is at an all time high and making huge profits that now WOTC is using this excuse for some small counterfit operations to include more anti-counterfit measures which will increase the pack price and earn them that much more money per unit. This isn't going to change the game nor did it ever. If we should worry about a fake or proxy card in a tournement we are worrying about that players pocket book and not his ability to play his deck or his skill level which is the real point of competitive play not who has the most money to afford to play their intended list. Yea WOTC don't want you proxying cards and playing fakes in tourneys because it isnt fare to their customer/players who paid for or traded into the real cards and mad sacrifices to play them and WOTC is losing money kind of but not really on old stuff they arent printing and selling anyway. In closing I believe they just wanna make more money and can use the safe guards added to charge more money per pack , box and case and increase their bottom line. Baseball cards have done this to extremes and went from 50 cents a pack in 1980 to as much as 200 dollars a pack in the case of threads. Hopefully WOTC never dose that to this game and this isn't the beginning of a trend.
January 13, 2014 2:54 p.m.
Personally, the main problem I have with this is the fear of buying a playset of (insert legacy or modern staple here) at full market value and getting the fake version.
Secondly, as the article stated, if you could for example get a playset of every vard in BNG for $5 or even much less, sealed packs and boxes would be sitting on shelves as their sales drastically decrease. If that happened, WotC would see their profits plummet, and that could conceivably create a chain reaction that is the end of MtG. I can't be the only person who would rather pay all this money for the cards and have these fakes stopped than to purchase and support the fakes and see the game I love die because I feel that everyone should want a 10 cent playset of Force of Will . I understand the frustration at the amount of money you have to spend on magic, I'm flat broke when it comes to extra money for cards and have been forced to trade for every card I've acquired for months, but if this keeps up there will be no more magic at all.
That is just my 2 cents after seeing posts (not necessarily here) that support this. Sorry for the rant, but frankly this scares the hell out of me, especially with some peoples attitudes toward it
January 13, 2014 5:07 p.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #23
Mtg dosn't make a dime off the secondary market nor do they sell old unopened packs of revised. People do who originally purchased the box and wizards already profited from. If you buy a unopened pack of unlimited you will get a pack of crap if it came from an open box, because the old wrappers were waxy see through to a degree in certain light and smart box holders have already use the trick and partially fanned the borders in the pack and removed the valued packs. I don't know whats worse buying a fake old card WOTC dosnt sell anymore or getting ripped on a 60 Usd pack of revised that has no chance of ripping you a great pull. WOTC isn't affected by the second hand card market of non-standard and will be just fine buddy. @bigv54
January 13, 2014 9:02 p.m.
They should put a QR code on the back of the cards and when you get it, you scan it and enter it into a database as yours. Then, when trading or selling singles, you just conduct a quick procedure on the database marking that the card has changed possession. Then, to test for counterfeits, a judge simply has to go on the database and make sure every card in your deck is marked as yours. Since most players use cardsleeves, the QR code wouldn't even detract from the aesthetics of the card. People trying to counterfeit could not just add new QR code to the database, and serious tournament players would have to buy the real cards, and thus their value would be preserved.
January 13, 2014 9:19 p.m.
@ColdHeartedSith That is kind of what I was thinking (about the disconnect between WotC and the secondary market). I think there could be indirect effects, but those might be minimal.
Especially if people like me are suddenly made shy of the secondary market - especially with the use of online sources ... I probably won't be buying cards online anymore.
I looked at that list and found only two that could be possible bad that I have from buying most of my cards online (Path to Exile and Inkmoth Nexus ). I don't want to have to worry about this, actually.
I do use proxies for most of the pricey cards I use - but I make them obvious on purpose (b/w - no color - and the wrong set symbols / wrong set symbols (the generic MTG set editor square)). It wouldn't hurt me much to stop using them - I would just stop lending decks out to strangers or friends playing at different tables where I can't watch things.
I think this could support an attempt to force MTGO - but it might be even more easy to hack into / counterfeit digital cards.
January 13, 2014 9:30 p.m.
tman007: the thought of a QR code is nice, but some players in tourneys just borrow their cards from friends
January 13, 2014 9:31 p.m.
r3v13w: if I'm not mistaken, shops have a low profit margin if they sell booster boxes at $100 or less. they mostly make up with individual pack sales or singles. either they crack open their own merchandise (taking the risk) or buy online. if people shy away from singles, the shops will take a hit, and eventually fold if they don't have another stable revenue stream
never had my own shop, so I could be wrong :)
January 13, 2014 9:36 p.m.
@cr14mson I think shops are already facing some problems because of the online secondary market.
It's a tough call, but what if the shop orders some cards online from a source like this one or gets cards from a player who bought stuff online from a counterfeiting source? I really don't want to get tangled up with something like that!
Shops can get some recovery from event entry fees maybe? That might be a good option anyway for them. I would pay.
January 13, 2014 9:43 p.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #29
You would be shocked to know shops pay about 1.86 a pack and thats the little ones and the promo's well you don't wanna know. Like pawn shops they pull in half of their inventory from customers and only pay 30% of the rare to mythic price in cash and 50% in trade value. So you bring in a 12 dollar rare the shop give you 4 cash for it then you buy a pack trying to get a land or card you need and hand em back the 4 and buy a pack from them that cost em 1.86, you pull a .50 cent rare oop you lose. Thats how it works buddy. Shops make a raping on mtg card and aquire sick trade and cash for cards deals all day and keep in high supply with singles cheaply. They may only bust 1 or 2 boxes open not cases after pre-release and thats all they will ever open. Kids do all the rest for them. @ cr14mson
January 13, 2014 9:56 p.m.
Hallowed_Titan says... #30
Wow, crazy. High quality fakes going around, doesn't seem good to me. Hopefully it's stopped before permanent damage is done.
January 13, 2014 10 p.m.
cr14mson I'm sure a borrow feature would not be out of reach for WotC to develop, or the players could just temporarily change ownership of the cards.
January 13, 2014 10:07 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #32
Gufymike is on the right track. Wizards obviously told all the websites/bloggers not to release the info about the new wave of counterfeit cards until they released their new security tech. Millions of dollars are at stake so you can guarantee this is not a coincidence.
The counterfeiters do not appear to be printing foil cards. Maybe the only way round this is to re-print the entire reserve list as foil with the new "foil bubble" frame.
Right now is Definitely a good time to sell off your P9 sets people!
January 14, 2014 5:14 a.m.
@tman007 & cr14mson: I don't know a lot about QR codes, but wouldn't they make cards distinguishable from each other, thus forcing you to play with sleeves? I know everyone uses sleeves anyway, but still. Also it would not look very nice.
January 14, 2014 5:31 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #34
I'm surprised people seem to think there's a money grab from the part of Wizards or the stores going on. Most of the stores manage on relatively thin margins, mostly from the secondary market, as they effectively are dealing in a commodity. Wizards is aware of this; they are also aware these stores are their primary way of getting new stock out. If they allow the secondary market to crash, these places go out of business, and nobody would buy the new stock, either. The events these businesses run (drafts, particularly) are probably responsible for the majority of packs opened.
I doubt they told bloggers to keep quiet or anything. I think it's more they knew it would break eventually- there's a "really good" counterfeit story every year, judging from a Google search. They made their announcement about the new anti-counterfeit measures and the very next "really good" counterfeit story triggered everyone's anxieties because it was on folks' minds.
Here's some other "really good" counterfeit stories I found without trying real hard on Google: 2004 2012
January 14, 2014 9:03 a.m.
@nobu_the_bard The 2004 story is talking about fakes that could be identified using light, bending, etc. The 2012 story is an individual blogger.
What is happening here in 2013 is a story, not just from a random blogger, and not just a few cards - it is much, much larger in scale and the number of cards involved is far more than just two without any way of stopping it, really since it is happening in China.
I think that maybe buying damaged or foil second hand cards might be slightly less risky (which is what many of my pricier second hand cards are) - but otherwise buying cards online seems a lot more risky all of a sudden! Too risky for me.
I don't even know for sure about second hand cards from a shop - I don't think they will continue to print them with that slight variation on the TM stamp - so I won't know how to spot fakes. Again, I could go with foils and damaged cards. That still seems safe.
January 14, 2014 1:47 p.m.
Wait - 2014 - doh (although the counterfeiting was probably happening for some of 2013 before they got caught).
January 14, 2014 1:49 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #38
@r3v13w my apologies I didn't work hard enough on finding examples. I'll see if I can find more information before I post anything else like that.
January 14, 2014 1:51 p.m.
WOTC is trying to make solutions against the counterfeit cards. If you look at the new changes all rares and mythic rares of M15 will have a new holographic oval at the bottom of the cards. Although this does not affect the commons and uncommons, they are not worth that much.
January 14, 2014 2:40 p.m.
Wizards' solution in changing how cards are printed does not affect the older cards that are worth a ton of money that are now risky to trade. Having said that, if the rares are identical to normal cards then it's not that much of a problem to any player at all, given that they're all still playable because no-one can tell a fake from a real..... Unless of course there are suddenly fakes everywhere and the cards that were worth hundreds of $ are now worth next to nothing. Which is VERY unlikely.
It just might have a knock on effect for Wizards if shops lose faith in their product and stop stocking it. This isn't that likely to happen, given the precautions they've taken with the newer cards. The new product should be fine.
January 14, 2014 2:45 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #41
This is why I keep my custom card creation away from Proxies. I make tokens all the time but I refuse to make proxies for people unless I make sure that everyone knows.
I made a proxy Black Lotus in foil for an ARMY buddy of mine and where it says "Artifact" I entered into the type "Proxy" just to cover my ass. (Credited the artist too.)
(He has a Lotus and most places will allow proxies if they are well enough done as long as you own the real deal.)
January 14, 2014 4:37 p.m.
I'm probably right in assuming someone has said this already, but Magic's now printing cards with new counterfeiting measures starting with M14.
January 14, 2014 5:19 p.m.
crystalizeq says... #44
What's really worrying me though is that I saw that a person at my LGS trading away a Jace the Mind Sculptor. Seeing as he was trading for less than his money's worth, I inquired why he would trade downwards. He said that it was a fake and thus worth less money. But what happens if that person doesn't inform the other person that it is a fake? The counterfeit looked very real, and they could easily rip off another person a few hundred bucks
January 14, 2014 7:29 p.m.
The problem with getting fakes is that you usually traded a ton or spent a lot of money on it. So if you spent $700 on a Mox Sapphire and later discovered it was a fake, would you just throw it in the trash? Hell no; you'd sell it to someone else to get at least some of your money back.
January 14, 2014 8:44 p.m.
I agree that whatever happens, measures must be taken to keep the integrity of the game intact. What's unfortunate about this on a competitive level is what penalties may ensue if a judge catches a player unknowingly playing fake(s), and even more so the fact that a player may intentionally do so and get away with it.
My biggest concern personally though would be the impact on the secondary market. Competitive and casual players alike take a certain amount of pride in their collections. I'll continue to support my local shops, but I'd be pissed to buy a fake they took in trade that neither one of us spotted and have someone catch it later. Of course anyone would be. Despite the financial loss depending on what card it is you're buying, it also damages the credibility of your local store.
January 14, 2014 10:09 p.m.
@crystalizeq What bothers me is that there are people out there who would utter a sentence like "It is a fake and therefore worth less" and not "It is a fake, and is therefore worthless" Key difference there.
A fake card is worth NOTHING.
January 14, 2014 10:11 p.m.
crystalizeq says... #48
Devonin Yes, that is exactly what bothered me as well. But some people think that they are just trading for the "same card" but it is just "cheaper." Which infuriates me. This counterfeiting of cards is very wrong and people take it as a means to finish their decks, which is completely wrong and is just making the situation worse.
January 14, 2014 10:53 p.m.
I recently bought a bunch of modern staples (over the summer of 13) and was just wondering what tests to use. I've used the bend and light test, as well as the water test. Does anyone know a sure fire way to tell beyond doubt if cards are real or not? Any help is appreciated
Unforgivn_II says... #2
I would assume there will have to be new safety measures for the cards. The simple "blue line" or "doesn't crease" won't work any longer. I don't know how long this has been at WotC's attention, but it seems odd timing that they would just happen to design holofoil ovals on rares/mythics in such close timing to a major counterfeit scandal.
All I know is that I'm going to put trading on the back burner for now. I typically only draft anyway, and the packs haven't been compromised, so I'm not worried about that
January 13, 2014 4:34 a.m.