Cipher question
General forum
Posted on Jan. 23, 2013, 2:47 p.m. by harrydemon117
I'm trying to wrap my brain around this: If I have Dimir Keyrune and activate it to "animate it", then cast a spell with Cipher on it Hands of Binding , does it "drop off" of it once it is no longer a creature?
Or does it stay imprinted on it since the permanent itself has not changed fields?
Rhadamanthus says... #3
It stays encoded. When the Keyrune goes back to normal it doesn't become a different object, and the Cipher mechanic doesn't have anything saying the card stays encoded only as long as the creature remains a creature.
January 23, 2013 2:54 p.m.
The same will go for Gideon, Champion of Justice reverting to only a Planeswalker, and Lazav, Dimir Mastermind changing to a newly copied creature. (Could there be a more self-serving target for "Paranoid Delusions" or Whispering Madness ?)
January 23, 2013 3:22 p.m.
702.97c The card with cipher remains encoded on the chosen creature as long as the card with cipher remains exiled and the creature remains on the battlefield. The card remains encoded on that object even if it changes controller or stops being a creature, as long as it remains on the battlefield.
January 23, 2013 3:30 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #6
Thanks mafteechr. I picked Simic for my guild for the pre-release, but if I get the right cards I might play with Dimir instead :)
By the way, where did you find the ruling for Cipher? I have tried googling it but didn't come up with any promising results as the sites I found did NOT have the full rulings posted for the new mechanics yet
January 24, 2013 8:12 a.m.
I have another Cipher question.
If I flashback Hands of Binding with Snapcaster Mage am I still able to use the Cipher ability?
January 24, 2013 8:33 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
Part of flashback is that the spell will go to exile instead of anywhere else. Since Cipher is putting the card in exile, flashback doesn't interfere with it.
The Gatecrash FAQ has the full CR entry for each of the new keyword abilities.
January 24, 2013 9:34 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Well, they aren't all keywords but you know what I mean.
January 24, 2013 9:34 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #10
I believe so. The "Then exile it" clause on flashback says that after it's resolved it gets exiled instead of being put into another zone.
The spells with Cipher have two things that happen: effect "A" and then Cipher. Since the card is not exiled due to Flashback until it resolves, I believe that you can use Snapcaster Mage as long as it's in the graveyard (more than likely from something like Thought Scour or choosing NOT to imprint it on a creature when you cast it previously)
January 24, 2013 9:41 a.m.
A ruling on Cipher: "The exiled card with cipher grants a triggered ability to the creature it's encoded on. If that creature loses that ability and subsequently deals combat damage to a player, the triggered ability won't trigger. However, the exiled card will continue to be encoded on that creature."
....This makes me think that I may have been wrong about Lazav, Dimir Mastermind .
When he becomes a copy of another creature, he loses his previous abilities (then regains the Hexproof, and the ability to copy). As such, he would lose the triggered ability that he gained from the Ciphered spell.
January 24, 2013 9:46 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #12
Don't worry, Lazav will keep the triggered abilities from the encoded cards. Ability granting/removing effects are applied in a later layer than copy effects, so when you layer up all the effects to determine his current characteristics he'll have those abilities. It's similar to him keeping the pump and abilities granted by an Aura or Equipment attached to him when he changes shapes.
January 24, 2013 9:50 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #13
Rhadamanthus is correct...the same goes for "Creature gains +x/+x" from enchantments and the like. If a creature is made a 1/1 until end of turn, its stats go to 1/1 and then get the +x/+x on top of it. Lazav still gets the encoded cipher card as the PERMANENT has not changed zones.
hollandboys says... #2
I believe it stays imprinted on the keyrune
January 23, 2013 2:51 p.m.