sisters of stone death question
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 9, 2013, 12:21 p.m. by couch_goblin
Hey folks!
Just built a new EDH deck I was wondering if my commanderSisters of Stone Death will be able to use its 3rd ability on a rival commander(after using the 2nd ability on it first of course) The wording looks like it would but I'm quite new to this format So thought I'd check with you lovely people :-D
Ohthenoises says... #3
It really depends. When a commander would move to exile or the graveyard it's owner may choose to put it into the command zone. In this case if they let the second ability send their commander into exile then you would be able to use their 3rd ability as you expect. If they just send it to their command zone it will not work.
November 9, 2013 12:30 p.m.
I'm just commenting here so I can bookmark this thing in a sense.
There is actually an interesting ruling brought up by one of our local about linked objects and replacement effects. I'm asking the UK Judges now, but you might be able to, depending.
November 10, 2013 2:58 p.m.
OK. I just asked in the UK judge group ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/333777836656239/ ).
The answer is yes. ( Explained here https://www.facebook.com/groups/333777836656239/permalink/676205575746795/ by our local level 2. )
November 10, 2013 3:30 p.m.
I disagree with that answer for two reasons. First of all, I don't think that rule 607.2a merely means that the two abilities have the same answer. As I read it, 607.2a means that cards such as Oblivion Ring require both that the card have been put in the exile zone by the linked ability, and that the cards actually be in the exile zone.
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
Second, regardless of the above, the only other cited rule is 603.6, which refers only to triggered abilities, not to activated abilities like Sisters of Stone Death . I can find no rule that does the equivalent of 603.6 for activated abilities, so I am inclined to discount that the same thing works for activated abilities.
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called zone-change triggers. Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponents hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.
November 10, 2013 4:11 p.m.
Well, as 1 of the level 2 judges in that thing said. "Two L2 judges just told me I'm right. /thread" :P
I'm asking higher but I've got 2 level 2 judges agreeing with me, with proof from rulings.
November 10, 2013 6:15 p.m.
Great, could I get the cited rulings instead of an appeal to authority?
November 10, 2013 6:18 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #9
To be fair LeaPlath I have butted heads with L2 judges before and proven them wrong without a shadow of a doubt. Also, that judge in the thread doesn't seem all that sure to me.
It MIGHT make sense because Sisters of Stone Death doesn't reference the zone to look for the removed object like Rescue from the Underworld which was given as an example. The problem I'm having with believing that it works is that when a commander is sent to the command zone like this Sisters of Stone Death never actually REMOVED the commander.
TL;DR more research is needed before conclusions can be drawn.
November 10, 2013 7:04 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #10
This is from the MTG commander website, The guys who hold the final say on all things commander.
more research incoming.
November 10, 2013 7:07 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #11
This seems pretty conclusive to me:
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
November 10, 2013 7:09 p.m.
Let it never be said I'm too proud to admit I am wrong. It actually looks like it doesn't work. The basic idea works, but not the example given. This makes me sad.
Because it says exiled, it looks like it will only look in the exiled zone, even if the replacement effect happens.
It does, however, work with some cards. For example, exiling a commander with Mistmeadow Witch and putting it into the command zone, will, when the delayed trigger happens, pull the commander out the commander zone because it says that card.
November 10, 2013 7:13 p.m.
There is no "being fair" about it. Either a person is right because he can cite rules which prove his point, or he is wrong. Being a judge gives one's word more weight, but without actually cited rules, it is still not enough to close off an argument.
I still think that rule 607.2a is the only rule involved. The It That Betrays / Leyline of the Void ruling is not the same thing as a linked ability, so it is irrelevant. The relevant part of 607.2a is the last line: "The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability." (emphasis added). If the card is not in the exile zone, it cannot be referenced by the second ability.
November 10, 2013 7:13 p.m.
And I should have refreshed before posting. Apologies for ranting on an agreement.
Yes, I believe it does work with Mistmeadow Witch. Same reason that It That Betrays and Leyline of the Void works.
November 10, 2013 7:15 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #15
No, you're fine raithe000. After looking at the oracle text I see that in comment #8 where I said "Sisters of Stone Death doesn't reference the zone" I was incorrect. The oracle text clearly states "2Black: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control." Referencing the zone in question.
I was agreeing with you but just being a tad more tactful than just saying "NO U R WRONG!1!" (Not that you were either.)
November 10, 2013 7:20 p.m.
I wanted it to be true so badly and the way I was reading it seemed like it worked. I emailed an L5 Judge too, just to check.
I'm going to build SOSD deck anyway.
November 10, 2013 7:21 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #17
She's good, Bit expensive for my tastes but still very good.
November 10, 2013 7:23 p.m.
"607.2a means that cards such as Oblivion Ring require both that the card have been put in the exile zone by the linked ability, and that the cards actually be in the exile zone."
This is incorrect. The card being "looked for" is required to be in the same zone it went directly to (with no detours and without having changed zone since). This does not need to be the zone designated by the original effect; it can be a different zone designated by a replacement effect. See Rest in Peace / Rescue from the Underworld ; It That Betrays / Leyline of the Void .
"To be fair LeaPlath I have butted heads with L2 judges before and proven them wrong without a shadow of a doubt. Also, that judge in the thread doesn't seem all that sure to me."
The guy that 'doesn't seem all that sure' is not one of the L2 judges in question; he's a very new L1 judge who has worked on a total of zero Comp REL events so far (he's awesome though - it was me who tested him for L1). The L2 judges (of which I am one), had absolutely no doubt as to what the correct answer is.
Also "I once met a judge that made a mistake ergo listening to judges is pointless" is a bit of a strawman / nonsequitur. I do understand the 'appeal to authority' problem, but it's nowhere near as silly as just disregarding the kind of experience and exam grades required to pass an L2 judge exam.
"The problem I'm having with believing that it works is that when a commander is sent to the command zone like this Sisters of Stone Death never actually REMOVED the commander."
This is a messy one semantically, so I understand the confusion, but simply put - whilst the commander did not end up in the exile zone, the action "exile the commander" was still performed (it was just modified by a replacement effect). The nature of replacement effects and zone changes means that the abilities are still able to identify the commander as "a card exiled with [cardname]" despite the fact that it is not in the exile zone. This of course ceases to be the case if the commander leaves the command zone at any point.
This is absolutely no different to Rescue from the Underworld / Rest in Peace so I'm really not sure why it's so hard for people to wrap their heads around.
- Effect E attempts to send object O to zone X from zone Z.
- Effect F modifies effect E and causes object O to be sent to zone Y instead of zone X
- Effect E attempts to find object O. As it has not moved from the zone to which it moved directly from zone Z. Object O is still there, so effect E can find it.
- Effect E returns object O to zone Z.
The only difference in the two scenarios is whether X and Y are "the graveyard; exile" or "exile; the command zone" respectively. Everything else about the interactions is identical. There is no logical reason to assume they would function differently.
November 10, 2013 7:24 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #20
ARoebuck What are your thoughts on the post from the official MTG commander website?
Also, Rescue from the Underworld / Rest in Peace is very different from Sisters of Stone Death and a commander going to the command zone. For one Rescue from the Underworld says "that card" while Sisters of Stone Death says "2Black: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control." This is a very different interaction.
November 10, 2013 7:29 p.m.
@ARoebuck I can't find the rule that sets up the Effect E etc. situation. Could you please tell me which one it is? Rule 603.6 (cited above) and its subrules definitely work for triggered abilities, but I cannot find a specific rule duplicating rule 603.6 for activated abilities, nor a more general version like the one you are using.
November 10, 2013 7:31 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #22
Also, there is this...
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that cant be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored
This means to me that if you move a commander to the command zone then you never actually EXILED the commander.
Unless I'm reading this wrong?
November 10, 2013 7:36 p.m.
I disagree quite strongly with the MTGCommander ruling, and will probably be prodding both them and other judges to help me build a case better backed by the literature. Just as a thought experiment, let's run with this -
If "the exiled card" = "the card that was sent to the exile zone"Then "the sacrificed card" = "the card that was sent to the sacrifice zone"Right? No, obviously not. Because there's no such place as the sacrifice zone. It's just extremely unfortunate from a semantic point of view that the verb "exile" and the noun "exile" zone are the same. We wouldn't talk about a creature being "graveyarded" would we? "Exile" is a game action, like sacrifice or destroy, and it does not necessitate that the card actually end up in the exile zone.
If Rescue from the Underworld will return the "sacrificed" card from exile even though it isn't where a "sacrificed" card ought to be, why can't SoSD return the "exiled" card from the CZ just because that's not normally where you would find an "exiled" card? There is no logical reason whatsoever, and to rule that this is the case is just inconsistent.
607.2a is the most relevant rule. Frankly, though, I think it's just broken because it wasn't written with commander in mind and IMO the direct reference to the exile zone ought to be removed. Remember, guys, commander has only recently gained recognition as a "real" format and the CR is still being updated to reflect this.
November 10, 2013 7:47 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #24
Also, I'm not sure cause I'm not up on my slang lately but was "P.S. Reading oracle text is tech oops lol wtf" supposed to be an insult? Cause the more I read it the more I think it is.
November 10, 2013 7:47 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #25
You say that 607.2a is the only relevant rule however you dispute what it clearly states....
November 10, 2013 7:48 p.m.
No it was just me pointing out that I myself ought to have paid more attention to the tidied up oracle text vs printed text - RFG is now "exile" etc. I'm still confident that the interaction should work as I described, though.
November 10, 2013 7:48 p.m.
I'm not disputing what's there in black and white - I'm suggesting that it is an outdated rule that has failed to receive revision since the introduction of the commander format and the existence of the command zone.
November 10, 2013 7:51 p.m.
The reason I believe Rescue from the Underworld works but Sisters of Stone Death does not is because Rescue from the Underworld sets up a delayed triggered ability, and therefore falls under the heading of rule 603.6, which allows it to reference the sacrificed card.
Sisters of Stone Death's third ability is not a triggered ability, and therefore cannot fall under rule 603.6. I am unable to find an equivalent rule for activated abilities or a more general version that would work for both. Given this and the fact that rule 607.2a specifies that for a linked ability to work, the card must be in the exile zone, I cannot agree that your effect E etc. argument holds true. If I am incorrect, please point me to the relevant rule.
November 10, 2013 7:54 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #29
As of right now the wording on 607.2a clearly states that the linked ability searches for the card exiled in the EXILE zone. This is clear. If they update the rules? Fine, however as of right now the rules clearly state that the cards look in said zone.
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
November 10, 2013 7:54 p.m.
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead
If you replace the exile event from Sister's second ability with moving it to the command zone instead, the event exiling it NEVER HAPPENED. The third ability will do nothing.
November 10, 2013 8:45 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #33
Even if it did Devonin it still wouldn't work because the Sisters of Stone Death won't be looking in the right zone.
November 10, 2013 8:47 p.m.
Yes, but rather than get into a discussion about whether the KIND of exile and reference that Sisters does is the same kind or different from effects like Oblivion Ring or Rescue from the Underworld, the entire question is moot because unless the opponent is a moron and allows your exile ability to move the Commander to the exile zone, Sisters second ability will never actually happen when used on a Commander, so how the third ability works becomes irrelevant.
November 10, 2013 8:49 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #35
I quoted 614.6 earlier and ARoebuck ignored it. instead he/she wanted to press the issue on 607.2a. Had to have my bases covered. ;)
November 10, 2013 8:52 p.m.
"614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead
If you replace the exile event from Sister's second ability with moving it to the command zone instead, the event exiling it NEVER HAPPENED. The third ability will do nothing."
If that was true, how does Rescue From The Underworld still work?
November 10, 2013 10:47 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #37
Because as raithe000 said: "Rescue from the Underworld sets up a delayed triggered ability, and therefore falls under the heading of rule 603.6, which allows it to reference the sacrificed card."
November 10, 2013 10:57 p.m.
After hunting through the Comprehensive Rules, I found this little addendum, which either clarifies everything, or is another "rule they forgot to update".
406.2. To exile an object is to put it into the exile zone from whatever zone its currently in. An exiled card is a card thats been put into the exile zone.
Exiling a card is not the same kind of action as sacrificing a permanent. It specifically refers to putting cards in the exile zone, and an exiled card is in the exile zone. I do not believe that you can have an exiled card if it is in another zone, and if a card is not exiled, it is not a legal choice for Sisters of Stone Death's 3rd ability.
@Bglamb could you be a little more specific?
November 10, 2013 10:59 p.m.
"607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to the exiled cards or to cards exiled with [this object], these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability."
That rule is not actually about what zone the cards need to be in. It's not intended as a rule specifying that the cards need to be in that specific zone. It's a rule that is talking about linked abilities involving exiled cards only affecting the cards that were exiled with the linked ability.
It should be obvious that this ruling is not an attempt to limit what zone an object can be in, it's intended to limit what objects that are in that zone can be a valid target. Given that this is obviously what the rule is about, the wording of the last sentence incidentally mentioning exiled cards is obviously in no way a rule about what zone the cards need to be in.
Trying to use incidental and imprecise wording on a rule to argue for a ruling against the intended meaning of the rules seems pretty pedantic and kinda clutching at straws. This is not a case of 'Well the rules clearly say x, so we should do it, even if it's not intended'. The rules don't clearly say it, they just make an incidental reference to it in a related rule, and clinging to that is not doing anyone any favours.
If you read that rule, it is obvious what the meaning of it is, and trying to claim otherwise is an attempt to twist the English language. There's no use claiming that the English language is perfectly precise either, and what is written must be what is intended, or even what is followed if it's not intended. The reading of the rule always needs some interpretation. Language is not that precise. Even if we try and write completely clearly, it needs to be taken with a certain amount of common sense.
Now you're clearly invested in your interpretation, so I don't expect you to change your mind now you've come this far, but it's painful to watch you do this, so I just thought I'd throw my hat in the ring behind the guy who is being reasonable.
November 10, 2013 11:07 p.m.
603.6 During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything.
Seems to say Underworld won't work.
November 10, 2013 11:11 p.m.
"I do not believe that you can have an exiled card if it is in another zone, and if a card is not exiled, it is not a legal choice for Sisters of Stone Death's 3rd ability."
The point is not that it's an exiled card, but a card that 'was exiled', even it that exile was replaced with something else.
November 10, 2013 11:18 p.m.
Also, he didn't ignore 614.6, he said this: "This is a messy one semantically, so I understand the confusion, but simply put - whilst the commander did not end up in the exile zone, the action "exile the commander" was still performed (it was just modified by a replacement effect). The nature of replacement effects and zone changes means that the abilities are still able to identify the commander as "a card exiled with [cardname]" despite the fact that it is not in the exile zone."
That rule is simply saying that the exile doesn't happen, not that the modified event doesn't happen at all. You're trying to apply rules in the wrong places.
November 10, 2013 11:23 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #43
My desire to continue this discussion is really at an end. The point is that ARoebuck and you, Bglamb, are the only two people that I can find out there that think that this works. EVERY source I can find about this situation says that it does not work, citing all of the rules we have cited and explaining very clearly why it does NOT work.
The official commander site has it ruled as a no.
The MTGSalvation forums say no.
In fact, I can't find ANY evidence on why it SHOULD work. The only thing that says is should is a L2 who refused to cite rules and you.
For some sauce there is this. I went throught he first two pages and I couldn't find a positive response, everything was negative.
November 10, 2013 11:56 p.m.
Hey, I'm not saying I think it works or doesn't work, I think that's something for the higher-level judges to rule on, I just didn't agree with your reading of the rule you quoted. To me, that rule doesn't say what you are claiming, and I only intervened because I think you would agree with me under normal circumstances, if you were not trying to defend a position you had previously taken up.
I'm all for appeal to authority.
November 11, 2013 10:32 a.m.
None of what you've linked in any way suggests that Sisters + Commanders work.
Even if I grant you that Sisters third ability somehow doesn't care WHERE the card is NOW as long as it WAS exiled by SIsters second ability, it doesn't change anything because the Exile event was replaced by a move to the Command Zone, and as the Comprehensive rules state absolutely clearly and unambiguously, replaced events DO NOT HAPPEN. So the Sisters' second ability did not in fact exile anything for the third ability to go looking for.
November 11, 2013 10:40 a.m.
His claim that "The event 'exile the Commander' was performed' is directly contradicted by the comprehensive rules which state "No, it actually did not happen at all"
November 11, 2013 10:41 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #47
Let's put it this way, I'm not the only one interpreting the rule in this way. I have only found two people who DON'T interpret it that way and one of those two has refused to quote any rules, instead giving scenarios. All this is assuming that the ruling about replacement effects that Devonin and I both quoted was moot.
I'm all for breaking cards, I do it quite frequently, but I do so WITHIN the letter of the rules, I don't go around flashing a title and just tell people that it works, and then refuse to quote rules. MtG just doesn't work that way.
Look, as I said, I'm really tired of discussing this. As far as I'm concerned, this is an open and shut thing.
I'll say this in closing though, if you go to a shop and just go in there touting this flimsy evidence and "two L2s said it works" they are going to laugh you right out of the shop.
November 11, 2013 10:48 a.m.
Yeah, that's really not unambiguous Devonin. The rule is saying that the result of the event never happens. This is to clear up confusion over things that would, for example, trigger on exile. I really don't think it's helpful to quote rules like that without the context of the information that the rule is obviously trying to convey.
It's not saying that the modified event doesn't happen, because it obviously does. The card goes to the command zone. The attempted action of exiling still takes place, it's just the result that doesn't happen. If the rule read the way you want it to, I think it would break an awful lot of other interactions we take for granted. (Imagine exiling a commander as part of a cost, for example. You wouldn't claim that the cost hadn't been paid because "IT NEVER HAPPENED") As to whether a linked effect can find the cards it tried to exile (but were whatevered instead), is another matter, of course.
As to Ohthenoises still banging on about 'going into a shop claiming it works', I don't know why he's still flogging that dead horse. I told you that I'm not claiming it works. I'm not the one getting invested in this argument. I just think that you're both trying to apply incorrect rules to the situation.
If every other judge on the planet says it doesn't work, then great, they're probably right. I don't really care one way or the other. I don't play commander. I just take issue with your method and reasoning, as outlined above.
November 11, 2013 11:06 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #49
I'm sorry but how can I "apply incorrect rules" when the judges at MTG commander and MTGSalvation are quoting the EXACT same rules that I am? Explaining it EXACTLY the same way that I am? Are you saying they they are applying rules incorrectly too? Cause that's a lot of people to tell that to.
November 11, 2013 11:10 a.m.
Okay, so the event of exiling still takes place, the result doesn't, because it was replaced by something else.
The result "Was exiled by Sisters of Stone Death" is the thing that is replaced by "Was moved to the Command Zone"
And the Sisters third ability requires that "Was exiled by Sisters of Stone Death" happened, not TRIED to happen, not SORT OF happened and then was replaced. It needs to actually happen in order for the third ability to be usable on the target chosen from the second.
And it doesn't.
raithe000 says... #2
This should probably go in the Q&A. FYI.
Sisters of Stone Death has errata that makes its second ability exile the card, and its third ability reference the exile zone. If your opponent chose not to put his commander in the command zone instead of the exile zone as a replacement effect, you could return it using the 3rd ability. However, your opponent should never do this, as there are no commanders that benefit from being in exile. So, in practice, the third ability cannot be used on a rival commander.
November 9, 2013 12:30 p.m.