How to deal with cheaters?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 7, 2014, 3:22 p.m. by pauljames61491
This is a bit of a bitter subject to talk about, but in the group I play with regularly, there's one player who we all have a problem with.
He's a bit of an obnoxious person even outside of games, Our group also has caught him stealing cards. But we've learned to not trust him with our belongings. That much isn't the problem.
The games we play against him (however rare those may be) are the issue. We're convinced he cheats frequently. I'll give an example: He was playing a Sheoldred EDH deck against me, and out of the six games we played that week, six games, he opened up with Cabal Coffers within the first two turns. And in a 100 singleton deck like EDH, is way too sketchy of odds to be considered a legitimate thing.
Now because of the circumstances being that it is a gaming group at our college we play among ourselves, we really can't tell him flat out to not come to the meetings where we play.
Does anyone have any advice as to how to deal with cheaters such as this? Outside of flat out not playing against him?
APPLE01DOJ says... #3
present the evidence like u did here to him when ur group confronts him. He'll either leave or straighten up.
January 7, 2014 3:30 p.m.
Just shuffle his deck before every game. It should stop any stacking as well as giving him a hint that you're onto hiim.
January 7, 2014 3:32 p.m.
Initiate a group-wide agreement to always cut each other's deck before playing. If he asks why, say it's because you all have noticed that you draw the same cards each game and that it's probably due to the way you shuffle. Cutting each other's deck lets you to overcome that and inject more variance in the game.
Honestly, I'm surprised you didn't exile his thieving ass the first time you caught him stealing cards. It may be a college group, but you are still allowed to exclude people who are detrimental to the group.
January 7, 2014 3:32 p.m.
There needs to be a line drawn at some point and this guy has crossed many lines most people wouldn't like being crossed. When this happens, exile is the only option.
January 7, 2014 3:44 p.m.
If the guy steals cards, exile him. If the guy cheats, exile him. If your entire group collectively doesn't like him, exile him.
I fail to see the problem here.
January 7, 2014 3:49 p.m.
case1: His cheating is obvious enough that you think you could catch him while he is doing it and make a point / example / scene out of it to shame him publicly and validate his exile (and punish him). Watch him and have your friends watch him and the next time it happens make a big deal about it, tell him off, and tell everyone that might be interested all about it (because he will probably be talking as well). Then tell him right away about his exile status - there shouldn't be any question as to why.
case2: He is so bad that he is actually creepy and scary - you could change the time and place where you meet without telling him (and make the new meetings less open to avoid similar problems in the future).
case3: You kind of just don't like him but don't want to change your meeting structure (or don't have control over it) and don't have enough evidence or cause to publicly confront or humiliate him without making yourselves look worse in the process (like snobs or jerks or something): come to the beginnings of the meetings and make a nice exit after a half hour or so - but plan an alternate meeting time and tell any new people that come about that other meeting schedule (but don't let him know and if he asks to come, don't invite him - make it something more personal and less open so that you can just invite / un-invite on a whim without it being questionable). If it's just a personality thing primarily, then be careful about accidentally making yourself look worse by what you do to him (or possibly burning bridges you could regret later). Every social group or hobby has highs and lows, but if you are too exclusive during the highs, the lows can actually involve too few people for the group to survive, etc.
It all depends on how much of this is him being a real creep (sounds like that is probably the case), and how much of it is just "eh, we just don't like him" (which can and does happen but needs to be handled with a bit more subtlety to avoid making asses out of yourselves).
January 7, 2014 3:56 p.m.
MazeltovCocktail says... #12
If it's a group, make group and play rules. If you steal, you're out. You're welcome if you play fair.
Can't really get him on theft if it's a suspicion. If you've proof, the problem is larger than the group and should be reported to campus police. It's not just mean to steal, it's a illegal.
That said, if you wanna get sneaky, run a deck with Slaughter Games or other card that expressly allows you to snoop through his library. Could catch him red handed.
January 7, 2014 4:05 p.m.
step 1: Make sure all this "we are all sure he is stealing cards and cheating" isn't just a group of people alienating another person because he is obnoxious, that quality in a person is often a person who need friends more then ever. It might be an annoying guy for many reasons but if you aren't really sure he is stealing and cheating confronting him will only make a guy who, i guess, doesn't have many friends in your group, or at all?, feel more left out.
step 2: If you are really sure he is stealing and cheating you need to confront him. Well.. if he is cheating just shuffle his library before a game and you are set. So, stealing.. If you know for sure then confront him.
I myself have been alienated from a playgroup based on false pretences. I spent a lot of money on cards to keep up with my friends, and one guy accused me for stealing. I stole a mars bar when i was about 10 years old, other than that i havent stolen anything. Its easy to accuse, its hard to be accused. Just make double sure before you fuck this guy :)
January 7, 2014 4:17 p.m.
I'm getting a pillow with "Just make double sure before you fuck this guy:)" embroidered on it.
January 7, 2014 4:24 p.m.
:) Dont know what pillow or embroidered means.. Eng is not my first language :p
January 7, 2014 4:28 p.m.
.... well i know the word pillow but not the way you used it..
January 7, 2014 4:28 p.m.
A pillow is like, a soft thing for resting your face while you sleep or rest your ass on a couch. Embroidering is like stitching a picture or words onto something.
January 7, 2014 4:29 p.m.
MazeltovCocktail says... #19
10vernothin, good suggestions.
Advice for dealing with the cheating should not include making a scene or shaming him. That will not only hurt the guy, it'll hurt your sense of self.
If you do catch him, don't make a huge deal out of it. Just say "that's funny. You must have accidentally put 12 copies of coffers in here." He'll knows his gig is up, feel bad on his own terms, and you won't sacrifice you're tact or good character by treating him poorly. Better still, if a bit scarier, if you catch him pull him aside briefly and say "I didn't want to embarrass you in front of everyone but you cheat anymore you won't be able to play with us". It's okay set limits and boundaries for folks and giving him the choice to participate is both nice if you and makes him accountable. Problem solved and you didn't have to bully/shame/hound/humiliate him to do it. I don't know if you were bullied ever but it doesn't feel good. Similarly, the bully is usually in their own emotionally precarious state and quite tormented in their own way. Be nice. Use tact. Set boundaries.
January 7, 2014 4:31 p.m.
Haha now when i read the word again i realise that "Embroidering" is pretty much the same in my language :P. Well.. you SHOULD always make sure before you fuck a guy. Thats not a bad quote to have on a pillow :D
January 7, 2014 4:32 p.m.
MazeltovCocktail does remind me of a niggling thought in the back of my mind that sometimes what looks like cheating is actually just an oversight. If there were two Boros Signet when you looked at his deck, that could just be an accident. But if there were 4 Cabal Coffers , that probably wasn't an accident. If you flip out at him over something that could have been an accident, you are running the risk of making a jerk out of yourself.
I guess that I see public questioning as automatically humiliating. Showing emotion about it and pointing it out in the moment amongst a community that has been suffering from it doesn't necessarily reflect badly on you.
In my own experience with cheating, it was involving people that I didn't have any problem with and I usually ignored it or brought it up gently with them as a group in a kind of open discussion format (and then only at a moment when it was immediately relevant so it wasn't like re-hashing or something). If it happens a lot, though, and continues to be kept quiet, it might keep happening. And if you don't bring it up publicly right when it happens, you kind of give up the right to bring it up ever again without looking like you are gossiping. You already have a lot of this kind of material and apparently it isn't getting your group anywhere besides uncomfortable.
January 7, 2014 4:49 p.m.
RegisteredDecksOffender says... #23
I lol'd at the fucking a guy pillow. If only I could +1 a comment..
January 7, 2014 4:52 p.m.
pauljames61491 says... #24
As a bit of clarification to the stealing issue, while I myself have never caught him in the act of stealing from me, I have had several cards (including a foil Ruin Sage, which since I had no way to really prove he had taken it, I just had to get another one) just coincidentally "disappear" from my collection after he looks through them. Now I've dealt with card thieves in the past and I've learned to take almost OCD inventory of every card I carry on my person so I know if something is missing. According to one person who DID catch him in the act, and reclaimed his cards, he will have his trade piles out, face down but still nearby. And if he were to pass by something he wants, he would casually slip it into his pile.
As for his being exiled from the group, because it is a campus-sponsored club, he would need to be given official warnings. I'm not a part of the exec board so I really don't know the guidelines for what constitutes a warning. But they're trying to find a way to loophole it because so many people have an issue with his conduct and suspected thievery.
When it comes to the stacking the deck, I'm not sure how others go about it, but when I'm playing him I make a note to cut his deck so should there be anything stacked, it is fixed before it can happen. But when I see him playing new players who don't know about his reputation (usually being taken advantage of), I feel unsure as to whether or not to warn them on the spot or to later on, give them a heads up away from him.
(as a bit of a disclaimer, while it's not a matter of his obnoxious personality that has many of us unable to tolerate him, it's entirely his game ethic, respect for others' belongings and nonexistent sportsmanship that have us irate)
January 7, 2014 4:55 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #25
I literally fell off my chair when I read that pillow comment, lol. I'm still laughing.
January 7, 2014 4:55 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #27
Cut his deck, and shuffle it again for him. Or confront him about it.
Or just punch him in the face.
January 7, 2014 5:09 p.m.
i cought someone stealing a 12 years old kids bag he claims it was his then he took off i cought up with him and beat his ass and gave the kid his bag back i told to store owner he was banned from store indefinitly
January 7, 2014 5:14 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #29
iknowthatfeelbro.jpg
We have two players in my playgroup who are complete douchenozzles. My reaction, after many sessions of watching them combo out and take 30-40 minutes to do so will be to, as soon as they sit down to play, pick up and make my own pod without them.
January 7, 2014 6:03 p.m.
hunter9000 says... #30
I'm not sure why this guy wasn't banned from being anywhere near you guys after you caught him stealing the first time.
January 7, 2014 6:36 p.m.
Bring up for a vote a motion to develop a list of group rules if one doesn't exist already. Include in those rules the ability of the group to excise a member by majority vote.
January 7, 2014 11:24 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #32
I am surprised you don't cut each others' decks? Where I am from, it is customary that each player offer his deck to an opponent to cut/shuffle as he so chooses before the game starts, so long as it doesn't take very long. Then, each time a shuffle happens during the game, you again offer an opponent to cut your deck. If there are multiple opponents, you try to choose a different one each time, but avoid choosing anyone that requires you to reach over/past someone. This is so ingrained in folks here, nobody remarks on it much. Among friends playing casually it often gets silly and people "cut" by just removing the top card and putting it on the bottom and promising "i hope you didn't need that" or something, but with strangers or less friendly guys/gals at the table it often gets taken more seriously.
If you catch someone red handed need to make sure everyone gives him a rough time about it.
I don't see any problem with telling him to play fair or play elsewhere if you suspect things are up. However, a dedicated cheater would normally throw a few false "failures" at you... is he addicted to winning or showing off or something?
If you aren't aware, the easiest time to stack the deck I find is during shuffling, but I've never done it except as joke when I was locked out of a game, as it seems to defeat the point of playing in the first place.
January 8, 2014 11:44 a.m.
It might not be a shuffling/cutting problem. If they are playing Commander, the cheater might have extra copies of the particular card instead of the required singleton.
10vernothin says... #2
confront him with your group.
January 7, 2014 3:23 p.m.