Will there Ever Again Be a Disney Movie with a Traditional Villain?

The Blind Eternities forum

Posted on Feb. 6, 2022, 12:44 p.m. by DemonDragonJ

I noticed that the Walt Disney company has not produced an animated with a traditional villain since Tangled in 2010, twelve years ago, and, by "traditional," I mean a villain who is openly evil, enjoys being evil, and actively hinders or torments the heroes (such as Scar, Jafar, or Maleficent). Instead, the plots of their films since then have been driven by interpersonal conflicts between the protagonists or destructive natural phenomena, and, while some of their movies have been excellent, I very much miss the films with traditional villains, especially since there has not been an epic villain song in a Disney film since Mother Knows Best from the aforementioned Tangled (I am not certain if Shiny from Moana should be counted as a villain song, since Tamatoa, the character who sings it, is not the main villain of the film). Since I have not yet seen Disney's newest film, Encanto, I do not know whether or not it has a traditional villain.

What does everyone else say about this? Will there ever again be a Disney film with a traditional villain?

It doesn't really help anyone to portray people as innately and inalterably evil--as Disney is starting to realize, humans are much more complicated than that.

I personally find the newer kind of "villain" the most interesting, since we might even agree with some of their points or feel sorry for their losses. It makes for a much more interesting film.

February 6, 2022 4 p.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #3

Being a "traditional" villain eludes toward sociopathy. For the sake of the antagonist, being evil merely for the sake of being evil is shallow and empty and makes for lackluster appeal. There is no sense of weight or motivation or drive. This, in turn, makes the audience disconnected as there is no true conflict other than "THIS PERSON BAD".

Recent trends toward Humanizing villains have shown that audiences want to be captivated and intrigued, but also pushed and questioned. Take JOKER, for example. While I am sure every last one of us knows murdering three men in the subway and starting riots and killing a TV host during a live broadcast is evil and vile and repulsive, we can all sympathize with Arthur's feeling of loneliness and abandonment and his general frustration at the system. What he does is gives us catharsis in that we can experience that release we all often feel at one point or another, without actually indulging in said acts themselves. It helps satiate the Id in our psychological profile in that we Humans are impulsive, yet largely (sometimes, usually) careful creatures who think with consideration. Most of us would never engage in riotous, destructive behavior - even if we'd like to.

The same applies toward murderous intent and other horrific acts of debauchery. The fact is, Humans are impulsive and wild animals and society helps reign us in, but those innate desires still exist within us. These two contradictory yet parallel clashes can be readily viewed with the "Call of the Void" phenomenon, in which people seek the desire to self-harm or harm others, seemingly irrationally. Most commonly it is associated with the feeling of the desire to drive head-on into traffic or into a tree as your mind "zones out", but it is also represented with putting your hand in a smoldering fire, touching a hot stove, wanting to step off a tall ledge, the urge to stay submerged while under water, consuming pills or alcohol at dangerous levels, etc etc.

While any one of you may scoff at this and believe it is resigned only for the insane, studies have shown up to 50% of all people exhibit this sensation at one point or another in their lives. And it isn't manifested just with dire or deadly consequences, either. The urge to engage in a relationship with an objectively toxic person also classifies as the Call of the Void.

The truth is, we seek validation. We want to know we are "in the right", and seeing a villain embark on the journey our inner Id so desires brings us release.

"Traditional" villains, therefore, are bland and two-dimensional as meaningless fodder; a gentle hurdle to overcome upon The Heroes' Journey.

But a compelling, captivating, intriguing, logical villain? Now that is enticing and appealing.

And it subverts the Heroes' Journey because it is no longer about "good vs evil" or "right vs wrong" or "moral vs immortal". No, instead now it about "control vs control", and you can legitimately pick a side based upon your own experiences.

This is why antagonist-driven media is becoming more and more prevalent in today's society - everybody wants to be in control; everybody views themselves as their own tragic hero. Thus, everyone views their life through the lens of the Heroes' Journey, meaning everyone views someone as the villain; be it the "Deep State", "Big Pharma", "Terrorists", "Corporations", "Institutionalized Racism" or even something smaller such as a boss with a chip on his or her shoulder, the bank that "stole" your home, the noisy neighbors, your own family members, your ex-spouse or whathaveyou.

We all want to be the hero, so we all need a villain. And having a villain we can relate to brings us a sense of worth. We can see someone prevail, but sometimes our frustration is such that we don't want justice.

We want vengeance.

So no, I don't think "traditional villains" will make a return, lest for poorly written content. I feel, and quiet frankly hope, this new age of relatable villains are here to stay.

February 6, 2022 4:46 p.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #4

And on topic of Disney Princesses, I so hope for the day we get a German-Victorian setting where we have a Princess who loathes, ney outright despises, singing and merriment altogether.

"Tooodaaay~, is a very spec-ial daaay~! With the birds and the bees, and the shrubs and the trees, TOOODAAAY~~~ toodaay, we give praise and give thanks and give raise to the Lord's and the Dames and the--"

  • "no." slams door

Lol

February 6, 2022 4:54 p.m. Edited.

golgarigirl says... #5

I agree about modern society generally craves more depth and nuance to their villains. And I do generally like more nuance better. However, why are the old 2-D caricatures so beloved? Ursula and Jafar weren't complex (and I don't even really want them to be more complicated), they are enjoyable in their simplicity. I can identify that many of these villains have unsavory stereotypes built-in, and understand their history, but dang if 'Poor Unfortunate Soul' isn't a bop and Ursula isn't living her best life.

That said, our heroes used to be just as simplistic. You can flip this right back around on them.

February 6, 2022 4:58 p.m.

Niko9 says... #6

I mean, it depends on the audience really. For you or me, yep, having more fleshed out villains is great, though personally I even prefer something like Finding Nemo where the journey is the obstacle and there are characters who cause it to be harder, but the real villain is just a painful situation that the character find themselves in. What could be more realistic than that? : )

That being said, and this is just my opinion, for sure, but having a lot of grey area for kids can lead to them misinterpreting the message. No one ever rooted for King John in Robin Hood (disney's best ever!) but if you show 10 kids a new star wars, at least a few of them are going to come home thinking that the empire is the good guys. So, maybe there is an argument that making things more clear cut for developing minds isn't necessarily dumbing it down, but that it can be a way of guiding them to the moral of the story. Like bumper lanes at the bowling alley.

Honestly, I haven't seen a new disney movie in a while, so maybe completely out of my depth : ) But I think there is room for both ways in fiction. I mean, Harry Potter had the most eviley evil bad guy and they were always fun. Though, and this is going way off topic, but I always felt like Hermoine should have secretly been the protagonist of HP. A character who comes from nothing, works harder than anyone, and eventually becomes more important than Harry who skates by on being the chosen one, that would have made it the best series ever.

Super fun discussion!

February 6, 2022 5:36 p.m.

Niko9 says... #7

Oh, and sorry for the double post, but there is also the old adage that something doesn't need to be done well if it's done interesting. Scar in lion king (OG...seriously...) was not a complex villain at all, but he sure was fun to watch. Structure comes second : ) Just being interesting comes first.

February 6, 2022 5:43 p.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #8

  • implying the empire didnt unify an entire galaxy and set up an intergalactic economy and commerce and provide jobs for literally billions and gave free education and training and the means to rise up from the bottom of any society into an expansive and interstellar career instead of farming moisture on a god damn desert planet and all they wanted was to end an ancient order of space monks who kidnapped children and forced them into grueling and rigorous training that broke many of their young bodies and minds only to be told that love and connection are sins and you must sacrifice and devote your entire life to a cause not your own for the sake of carrying our such shitty traditions to indoctrination more children to further the perpetual and cyclical cause because some ancient old fuckwads want to move rocks in a swamp with their mind

Lmao

I forget where I heard that argument from online, but it got me pretty good when I heard it the first time. Obviously space Nazis are the evil ones but it's quite hilarious to me that we can denigrate the Jedi in such a way.

February 6, 2022 5:52 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #9

TypicalTimmy, that was an amazingly well-written essay, and I can certainly understand your perspective, but I must respectfully disagree; I like villains who are so utterly evil and depraved that not only do they enjoy being evil for the sake of being evil, they practically become aroused from committing evil deeds. You mentioned the Joker, but I shall also mention Carnage, who enjoys killing people and causing mayhem; he is not deep or complex, but he is one of Marvel's most popular villains. Similarly, Kefka from Final Fantasy VI is one of that franchise's most popular villains, despite being pure evil, and both Darkseid and emperor Palpatine are straightforward evil overlords, but are still some of the most popular villains in all of fiction.

Omniscience_is_lifeI cannot speak for everyone, but I do not wish to sympathize with or understand the villains in a story; I want the villains to be so vile and sadistic that there is never any doubt in the minds of either the heroes or the audience that the heroes are fully justified in seeking to defeat the villains.

I am not saying that Disney should return to their previous style of villains for every film, but it would be nice if they could still have a traditional villain on occasion, so that audiences know that they have not entirely abandoned that type of character.

Also, as for Disney princesses, there was finally an evil prince in the form of Hans from Frozen, so I am hoping that there shall eventually be an evil Disney princess.

Also, to counter TypicalTimmy's newest post, the idea of the Jedi being a stern and controlling faction was introduced in the prequel trilogy; in the original trilogy, there was nothing to suggest that the Jedi were anything other than the epitome of goodness and virture, and I am very displeased that George Lucas made that decision in the sequels.

February 6, 2022 6:06 p.m.

Niko9 says... #10

TypicalTimmy Ha! That's pretty funny. I mean, yeah, but no, but kinda yeah : ) Star wars is a unique can of worms, I feel like, just because we start the entire series seeing the failings of the jedi and having Luke, who is like the worst jedi ever, but still being their last gamble. Which all makes sense, but then every series that picks up after Luke says, wait, lightsabers are cool and we want jedi, even though we know, from the very start, that they are actually failures at best, and detrimental to the galaxy at worst. It seems like a series that became obsessed with a few core concepts that go completely against the original story.

And, big gripe, but Luke attacks his student? Seriously? His entire story was that he always saw the good in people. He didn't really have any crazy powers or anything, he just believed in his dad, against all rhyme and reason and advice from anyone. What they did with him was painful : )

February 6, 2022 6:10 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #11

Niko9, the sequel trilogy utterly ruined Luke as a character, and I cannot comprehend how they thought that that was actually a good decision to make.

February 6, 2022 6:16 p.m.

It's certainly easier on our minds if we can have a simple good/bad dichotomy going, but again: that's not how life works. In fact, the whole idea of the "good" versus the "bad" is what perpetuates such systemic injustices as racism, sexism, and homophobia. Capitalism as a system needs there to be a group to exploit for cheap, uncomplaining labor--otherwise capitalists wouldn't be able to harvest surplus value and make a profit. As such, the system has created arbitrary borders between people (race and gender are two examples of this) so that they might criminalize one and vault the other to success. This is why, living in a capitalist system as we do, it's much gentler on our brain to have a "good" and an "evil".

February 6, 2022 6:19 p.m.

Niko9 says... #13

DemonDragonJ Yep, it was baffling really. I guess I get that they are trying to focus on the new characters, but believing in others was the one thing that Luke was known for. It would be like if they had Han and Chewy come back with a fear of flying. Or Leia coming back and not being 10x tougher than anyone else : )

February 6, 2022 6:22 p.m.

Grubbernaut says... #14

I think the short answer is that Disney realized they're largely marketing the films towards the parents, rather than the children, as they did in the past. For kids' movies, I'll say that "cheesy" and Always Chaotic Evil villains are perfectly fine. As an adult, you definitely need more.

Overall, I'm indifferent. Nu Disney will never tickle me; the last film I really adored was Tangled. Not to say newer ones aren't enjoyable, but if it's JUST the music getting me, it's not the same.

February 6, 2022 8:06 p.m.

plakjekaas says... #15

Scar and Jafar aren't evil just to be evil though. They want to rule the country, not for the benefit of the country, but for themselves (Jafar) or their group (Scar & hyenas). Villains like that have been found on CNN for the past years, we don't need feature length animated movies for those anymore.

February 7, 2022 12:03 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #16

If Disney is not having utterly evil villains, anymore, will there ever again be an epic villain song? That would be a major loss, in my mind.

February 7, 2022 6:44 p.m.

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