would Phantasmal Image return if it had undying but already has the +1/+1 from it and is the target of a Tragic Slip?
Asked by thatguyy_jordan 6 years ago
If I controlled a Phantasmal Image that is a copy already of my Geralf's Messenger I control, and the image has already died and returned with its undying effect, giving it a +1/+1, and I recopy the messenger . . .
What would happen if I play Tragic Slip on my image (that has copied messenger again and has its undying +1/+1)?
1.) Would the -1/-1 counters remove the +1/+1 counters and THEN the images effect of "When this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it." activates. Allowing the copied messenger undying effect to replay.
OR,
2.) would my image die without undying resolving because of his "sacrifice once it becomes a target" effect?
thatguyy_jordan says... #2
so if I played tragic slip on my returned messenger (that has a +1/+1) and he died, he wouldnt return again?
August 22, 2017 9:15 p.m.
Let's assume you have Geralf's Messenger with a +1/+1 counter. And also a Phantasmal Image copying the messenger, with a +1/+1 counter. If you cast Tragic Slip and target the image, it will die due to its sacrifice ability. And Tragic Slip will fizzle (be removed from the stack) since it has no target. Now if the messenger was dying and your targeted it with Tragic Slip it also wouldn't help. This is because +1/+1 counters are only canceled out by -1/-1 counters. And Tragic Slip doesn't use counters. It just alters the power/toughness.
For this to work you could use something like Instill Infection. This would save Geralf's Messenger but not Phantasmal Image. In fact if you use this card on the image you wouldn't even draw a card because it would have no target and fizzle.
August 22, 2017 9:55 p.m.
Also, if putting -1/-1 counters on a undying creature with a +1/+1 counter on it kills it, the creature doesn't come back, because the counters are removed at the same time as it dying and undying trigger looks back to just before that happens and sees it had both.
August 22, 2017 11:25 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #5
To add on to Neotrup's point, here is the relevant rule
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent's last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
So after you -1/-1 counter the creature, it is placed in the graveyard as a result of state based actions. To check if Undying triggers, we check the last known information before the counters were removed and the creature died. That information is that Mr Undying has +1/+1 counters on it, so it cannot trigger Undying
pskinn01 says... #1
Tragic slip does not give counters, just a negative effect till end of turn. So would die anyway. But it would die before the spell resolved.
August 22, 2017 9:12 p.m.