How does Underworld Breach and suspend work?
Asked by blobman122 3 years ago
So I am Brewing a Vadrok, Apex of Thunder edh deck and I bumped into underworld breach and a suspend card in the graveyard (Lotus Bloom). Can I cast Lotus Bloom from the graveyard without suspend through escape?
Tylord2894 says... Accepted answer #2
The specific example you pointed out with Lotus Bloom would not work.
Underworld Breach gives nonland cards in your graveyard Escape with an Escape cost equal to that costs mana cost plus exile three cards from your graveyard. The problem is that Lotus Bloom has no mana cost. This is an unpayable cost, so you can't Escape cast it (118.6). This is the same reason you can cast Lotus Bloom from your hand.
That said, it's CMC is still 0. Since Vadrok, Apex of Thunder allows you to cast some without paying it's mana cost, you can cast Lotus Bloom with Vadrok's trigger.
Hope this helps!!
118.6. Some objects have no mana cost. This represents an unpayable cost. An ability can also have an unpayable cost if its cost is based on the mana cost of an object with no mana cost. Attempting to cast a spell or activate an ability that has an unpayable cost is a legal action. However, attempting to pay an unpayable cost is an illegal action.*
May 28, 2020 8:04 a.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #3
Tylord2894 it says right there that you can cast a spell with an unpayable cost, it is a legal option. I don't see what the problem is? The rule really only says you have to pay additional costs for it, in this case exiling 3 cards.
May 28, 2020 8:56 a.m.
Tylord2894 says... #4
Reading the next sentence in that rule should answer your question. The excerpt that you pointed out is saying that you may begin casting the spell, so you can proceed through the first handful of steps of casting Lotus Petal. However, once you get to the spell-casting step where you need to pay costs, you'll be trying to pay something that is unpayable. At that point, the game has to rewind back to when you began casting the spell because you are trying to do the impossible (pay the unpayable).
In short, it is a legal action start casting a spell with an unpayable cost, but you will quickly run into issues.
May 28, 2020 9:15 a.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #5
118.6a If an unpayable cost is increased by an effect or an additional cost is imposed, the cost is still unpayable. If an alternative cost is applied to an unpayable cost, including an effect that allows a player to cast a spell without paying its mana cost, the alternative cost may be paid.
I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but it's very confusing and actually there are not a lot of clear answers for this, on the cards gatherer page or on the rules for escape. I don't think they had a card like that in mind when they designed breach or escape for that matter. I wish it was more clear because breach essentially gives bloom escape... But I can see where you can't pay nothing for a mana cost, because paying an unpayable cost is illegal. I think you're right about this but I think it presents a problem with underworld breach which should be addressed as a ruling on the card. Something that says it doesn't work on cards without mana costs or cards without mana costs have an escape cost of 0, just for definitive purposes
May 28, 2020 9:23 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
blobman122: The "Accepted answer" has been changed to reflect the correct answer to the question. Lotus Bloom can be cast with the alternate cost given by Vadrok, Apex of Thunder, but not with the alternate cost given by Underworld Breach.
May 28, 2020 9:38 a.m.
Tylord2894 says... #7
Monomanamaniac, while I don't know what the designers of Breach were thinking, I'm sure they were not concerned about this interaction. I agree that it is not very intuitive, but the rules (namely the two that we quoted) explain why you can't use Breach to cast Lotus Bloom. Moreover, the rulings on the Gatherer are far from comprehensive and are not kept up to date. Rarely will the rulings on a card be updated. For questions that are fairly niche (like this one), the CR, someone that knows the CR well, or a judge (like myself) should be consulted.
Monomanamaniac says... #1
Yes, that would work. The rules on suspend are specifically casting from hand, this is casting from the graveyard and is thus exempt from having to be suspended. That's a great combo actually. What's better is when you mutate your commander you can also cast lotus bloom from your graveyard because it has a cmc of 0.
May 28, 2020 3:32 a.m. Edited.