How does Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons interact with infect?
Asked by Daedalus19876 7 years ago
Does Infect count as "you" placing the counters, or does the fact that it's a modification of how damage is dealt make it a global effect not caused by "you"? Same sort of question applies to effects like Harbinger of Night - basically, what are the conditions for Hapatra to trigger?
(Tagging Grahamatica, who had the same question.)
Rhadamanthus says... #2
I think it depends on whether "you put" means "a source you control puts" or "an effect you control puts". If it's the "source" definition then the answer is yes, but if it's the "effect" definition then JerichoDarkstar's analysis applies and the answer is no. I can't seem to find a clear answer in the current version of the Comprehensive Rules, so we might need to wait until the FAQ / Release Notes document comes out.
April 12, 2017 12:54 p.m.
Daedalus19876 says... #3
Rhadamanthus: And Harbinger of Night (or similar cards) would fall under both categories?
April 12, 2017 1:01 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
Yes, it would. "Source" is a broader term that can cover events from either resolving spells/abilities or applying game rules. Harbinger of Night's resolving triggered ability would be an "effect", and therefore also a "source". The placement of -1/-1 counters for damage done by Infect or Wither would fall under "source", but it's an application of a game rule, and doesn't count as an "effect".
April 12, 2017 1:12 p.m.
JerichoDarkstar says... #5
No, I think that's different. The big distinction that I think is drawn is the difference between putting something with a card effect and have -1/-1 counters show up because of a replacement effect.
So, I'm pretty sure cards like Harbinger of Night and the new cards like Channeler Initiate would trigger Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons. In fact, I think she was designed to interact with those types of cards.
Yeah, that was my biggest problem. No matter why I looked, I couldn't find anything definite about how Infect places counters. I hope WoTC actually addresses this. It may be one of those interactions they have to specifically talk about because it falls in that weird gray area where the current rules don't give the whole picture.
April 12, 2017 1:14 p.m.
woodgateski says... Accepted answer #6
gatherer.wizards.com has ruled on this. Infect has the PLAYER putting the tokens on, hence triggering her ability.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=426901
B/G Infect EDH is now officially crazy
April 21, 2017 1:36 p.m.
JerichoDarkstar says... #8
Thanks a ton for finding that, woodgateski. I'm really glad we got an official ruling from gatherer.
I'm actually really glad that's how it works.
April 21, 2017 1:45 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
Further confirmation from today's Update Bulletin:
119.3d We've never cared who puts counters on things before, only how many. With Amonkhet, we care about who does it, so the rules for wither and infect got an update to answer a question we've never had an answer for: the controller of the source puts the counters on the creature.
JerichoDarkstar says... #1
This is a very good question. I'm not sure I have this right, but I'm going to try to give an explanation.
Players themselves are incapable of dealing damage. See these rules
609.7a:
If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent; a spell on the stack (including a permanent spell); any object referred to by an object on the stack, by a replacement or prevention effect thats waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability thats waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in).
119.2a
Damage may be dealt as a result of combat. Each attacking and blocking creature deals combat damage equal to its power during the combat damage step.
119.2b
Damage may be dealt as an effect of a spell or ability. The spell or ability will specify which object deals that damage.
Infect is a replacement effect for damage. See these rules:
119.3d
Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
702.88c
Damage dealt to a creature by a source with infect isn't marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
I think putting these two concepts together comes to this conclusion: You are not putting -1/-1 counters on a creature with infect. The creature that was dealing damage is. This is different than an effect that asks you to put -1/-1 counters on something. Therefore, you are not triggering Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons because you are not the source of the -1/-1 counter.
I could be totally wrong on this, but that's how I interpret the rules.
April 12, 2017 11:27 a.m.