Effects Reducing Toughness Vs. Effects that Change Toughness
Asked by TehGrief 6 years ago
A debate has started in my playgroup involving the discussion of Effects and Continuous Effects and how they interact.
The combo in question is Yahenni's Expertise and Sudden Spoiling.
Yahenni's Expertise's effect applies a reduction effect; "All creatures get -3/-3 until end of turn.".
Sudden Spoiling's effect reads; "Until end of turn, creatures target player controls lose all abilities and have base power and toughness 0/2.". Altering the Base power and toughness of a creature.
The argument we are having is what replaces what.
In the case that there is a creature with base toughness 5/5, and Yahenni's Expertise is played, giving the creature -3/-3, the creature becomes a 2/2. Then, casting Sudden Spoiling; would that same creature become a 0/2, or does that creature become a -3/-1?
Had the cards been cast in the other order; Sudden Spoiling making creatures Base power 0/2. Then casting a reduction ability such as Yahenni's Expertise, There would be no question.
At this current time, we are unsure.
To confirm that we are on the same page;
Yahenni's Expertise is cast, it resolves; applying Layer 7c's rulings, now holding the timestamp of (a)
Upon resolving it triggers free cast of Sudden Spoiling, which resolves; applying Layer 7b's rulings, now holding the timestamp of (b)
But because of the Layer system, even though timestamp (a) was cast earlier, introducing timestamp (b) to the battlefield causes them to be checked in sequential order; thus Applying -3/-3 and 0/2 both simultaneously and separately, causing creatures target player controls to become -3/-2 until end of turn.
After reading the comprehensive rules article (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/layer-system-2009-11-05) I was able to understand your answer a little better and feel more confident using rules like this myself.
I suppose part of me didn't want to believe it, it seems overwhelmingly strong in certain situations, especially against newer players who might not know about the layer system.
If a player were to cast Holy Light at the start of the turn, most players would let it resolve due to it being a pathetically small effect (Green players would probably laugh).
However, if a player were to cast Humility at the end of their turn... all of their opponents creatures would die (if they had no other CDA's). This alone could catch new and old players alike off-guard.
However, rules are rules.
Thank you for your help, honestly.
Neotrup says... Accepted answer #2
Sudden Spoiling applies in layer 7b setting the creatures power/toughness to 0/2 before Yahenni's Expertise which applies 7c. The targeted player's creatures become -3/-1 regardless of the order the spells resolve, and therefore get put into their owner's graveyard as a state-based action.
October 1, 2017 2:22 p.m.