Does Kruphix, God of Horizons do anything with Humility out?
Asked by knowledgeabletyrant 6 years ago
With the new rules on Blood Moon, if I play Kruphix, God of Horizons with a Humility on board, and nothing else to contribute to blue and green devotion, does Kruphix become a 1/1?
Similarly, if I already have a Kruphix, God of Horizons at a devotion of 2, and I play a Humility, does it see him as a creature?
I believe the rulings change is based on a change to the comprehensive rules that has not gone live yet (I can't actually find details so I'm guessing here). The rules governing how Blood Moon work come from this rule:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1cd.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
Presumably that will be changed to allow continuous effects from other sources to not only modify how a permanent enters the battlefield but to be applied before replacement effects. It would make sense that replacement effects from other the permanent's own static abilities would be taken into consideration before static abilities from other sources (that is Kruphix, God of Horizons would enter as a noncreature enchantment), but it's possible static abilities from other sources would be applied first (so Kruphix would enter as a 1/1 creature enchantment with no abilities). Until the rules actually change (presumably in a few days when Ixalan goes live) we won't know why Blood Moon's rules are changing, the ruling note on Gatherer even lists it's post date as 9/29/2017 as I look at it on 9/24/2017,
September 25, 2017 1:12 a.m.
I'm sorry, I completely forgot about layers when answering this question. Kruphix, God of Horizons's devotion ability is a Characteristic-Defining Ability and thus always get's applied before Humility. While your devotion to blue and green is less than 7 it's an Enchantment with nifty abilities and when your devotion to blue and green is more than 7 it's a 1/1 enchantment creature with no abilites, but if your devotion dips back down it regains it's abilities.
September 25, 2017 1:27 a.m.
And now I'm realizing I'm even more wrong, it's not a CDA, it get's applied in timestamp order through the layers.
Layer 4: Kruphix's ability stops it from being a creature.
Layer 6: Humility sees that Kruphix is not a creature and does nothing.
Layer 7: Kruphix is not a creature so we don't need to worry about modifying power or toughness.
And I should go to bed and let someone more qualified correct all my mistakes.
September 25, 2017 1:32 a.m.
knowledgeabletyrant says... #6
Neotrup Wow! thanks for all the input! This is the first ruling I've seen that involve the layers. So just to be clear, once Kruphix becomes a creature, he doesn't necessarily stay a creature even though his devotion count is an ability?
September 25, 2017 6:12 p.m.
Right, because the devotion ability is a type changing ability, so it applies in layer 4 before humility removes the ability in layer 6. Now that I'm rested I'm willing to say that it plays out like I answered in #3, but for the reasoning I gave in #4. Regardless, the upcoming rules change shouldn't impact it.
Oloro_Magic says... #1
I'm not sure how Blood Moon is relevant here as lands don't provide devotion but Kruphix, God of Horizons would not be subject to Humility until it becomes a creature, in the event it achieves becoming a creature then yes it would be a 1/1.
Quote from a mtgsalvation rules forum:
I feel it's important to note here that Heliod will not "lose devotion". Devotion is not an ability, it is simply a count of your permanents mana symbols. Devotion is simply a fact that is true. The rules text on Heliod referring to your devotion is not an ability, but just rules text.
"700.5. A players devotion to [color] is equal to the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls." - Comp Rules
"Devotion
A numerical value a player has, equal to the number of mana symbols of a certain color among the mana costs of permanents that player controls. See rule 700.5." - Comp Rules Glossary
September 24, 2017 8:53 p.m.