Titania's Song Vs. Mycosynth Lattice
Asked by TehGrief 7 years ago
I am curious about the interaction between these two cards.
Would the time-stamp determine which ability took presidence?
If Titania's Song is on the battlefield, and somebody casts Mycosynth Lattice; as it enters, does it become a 6/6 with no inherent abilities?
If Mycosynth Lattice is on the field first, and somebody casts Titania's Song; does this create a loop?
Which effect is checked first?
First answer wrong.
If ML comes into play first, all permanents first become artifacts, then TS changes them to artifact creatures that lose all abilities. This includes ML, so the ability that makes permanents colorless and lets you spend colorless mana as colored mana is removed, and don't apply.
If TS comes into play first, its effect changes all non-creature artifacts into artifact creatures with no abilities, and this includes ML. Since ML has no abilities anymore, it has no effect at all
January 21, 2018 6:10 p.m.
Sorry, but your answer is quite confusing; or perhaps it was the way I worded my question.
Both Titania's Song's and Mycosynth Lattice's type-changing effects happen in layer #4, which means that they would occur in time-stamped order.
However, Titania's Song's ability "Each noncreature artifact loses all abilities and becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost." happens in layer #6.
Situation #1
My understanding of the rules is that if Titania's Song has timestamp A (A = first on the field) and Mycosynth Lattice is played (being assigned timestamp B (B = second on the field)); Titania's Song will recognize Mycosynth Lattice as an artifact, immediately removing its ability and turning it into an Artifact creature with P/T = 6/6.
However, what I wanted to know is if the same is true if the order is reversed.
Situation #2
So we now have Mycosynth Lattice with timestamp A, and Titania's Song with timestamp B.
"All permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types." happens in layer #4, meaning that anything that is a permanent is also tagged with "Artifact".
When Titania's Song enters the battlefield it becomes an Artifact Enchantment.
We now check Titania's Song's ability; "Each noncreature artifact loses all abilities and becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.", both cards now lose their abilities and become artifacts.
Mycosynth Lattice now no longer has the ability "All permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types.", meaning that Titania's Song goes back to being just an enchantment with the ability; "Each noncreature artifact loses all abilities and becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.". (?)
At this point... has Titania's Song taken presidence? Am I correct in my understanding of how this would play out?
- In situation #2... which card has priority?
January 21, 2018 6:54 p.m.
The second answer was from an article on wizards website. Which I think was before layers were changed.
But each effect takes place in it appropriate layer, with time stamps only matters in when effecting same layer. And only if one does not depend on the other. And once an effect is applied, it doesn't matter if the object loses that effect later in the layer system.
So step by step.
- ML (layer 4) applies making all permanents artifacts. This will not change even if ML loses it on a later layer.
- TS (layer 4) ability changes all non creature artifacts into creatures. (This ability is dependant on ML, so will always go second)
- ML layer 5 makes things colorless.
- TS layer 6 removes all other abilities from artifacts it made creatures.
- TS layer 7 makes the artifacts it made into creatures into power/toughness to CMC. - this is due to "If a continuous effect has started applying in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply in later layers even if the ability that created that effect has been removed."
So time stamps are not relevant in this case.
Also i miss spoke earlier, time stamps are applies in order they entered the field.
January 21, 2018 7:43 p.m. Edited.
The order doesn't matter. I'm quiet confused as to how pskinn01 seemed to understand layers, and then decided they don't apply. What happens is in Layer 4 Mycosynth Lattice makes everything artifacts and then Titania's Song makes everything creatures. It happens in this order regardless of timestamps because Titania's Song is dependent on Mycosynth Lattice. Then in Layer 5 Mycosynth Lattice makes everything everywhere colorless. Then in Layer 6 Titania's Song removes all abilities from all the things it turned into creature (presumably every permanent). Only abilities that have been applied in part before layer 6 can now be applied. In layer 7b Titania's Song now sets the power of each permanent it turned into a creature. It can do this because the ability started to apply way back in layer 4, so even though the ability is gone, it still finishes applying. Mycosynth Lattice's first two abilities applied before they could be removed, but it's final ability doesn't apply in the layer system at all, and thus no longer functions. Mana has to be spent properly instead of being used as if it were any color, but considering lands probably died from being 0/0s or at the very least no longer have abilities, you probably aren't spending mana anyways.
January 21, 2018 7:48 p.m.
Neotrup I already addressed that. I was sent a link to an article that showed I was wrong. Then noticed it was made before M10 changed the layer system rules. I am sorry for any confusion that this made.
January 21, 2018 7:52 p.m.
You're third post wasn't in when I'd started on my post. It seems to be accurate, wish Tapped Out would tell you when your replying to something that's gotten more replies since you loaded it.
January 21, 2018 8:38 p.m.
I (think) I am understanding your answers so far, however...
So far, with your answers, we have determined that:
Both Mycosynth Lattice's and Titania's Song's type-changing effects resolve and remain persistent for the turn, because of the ruling that "If a continuous effect has started applying in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply in later layers even if the ability that created that effect has been removed."
Mycosynth Lattice and Titania's Song (along with all other non-creature permanents) are creatures with power and toughness each equal to their converted mana costs.
But here is the part that is getting me... perhaps it is disbelief, perhaps I do not want to believe... It all just seems paradoxical.
- Once Titania's Song becomes a creature and it checks itself, it loses it's abilities, but they continue to remain for the rest of the game?
To Clarify...
(Now correct me if I am wrong...)
Despite this continuous effect continuing...
Since Mycosynth Lattice no longer has it's ability (or does it?), after all of this madness has been sorted out;
- any new or future permanents entering the battlefield are NOT artifacts in addition to their other types,
and furthermore;
- any future non-creature artifacts are NOT creatures with power and toughness each equal to their converted mana costs?
However...
I think I have another answer to all of this... Show
January 22, 2018 8:01 a.m.
The layer system is done all the time (consistently). If an other permanent comes into play, the same layers still are applied to it. They can stack and become weird interactions such as this one.
So all spells are colorless, all non creature artifacts are creatures and lose abilities. But any abilities that are applied before the layer that removes them, are still applied.
January 22, 2018 8:13 a.m.
Okay, I think I understand this all a bit more.
If I was to cast Enchanted Evening in addition to all of this, despite not having an ability, because it would have applied an effect in layer #4 we still end up with the effect that says everything is a Colourless Artifact Enchantment X.
I love paradoxes...
January 22, 2018 9:11 a.m.
Correct. Even though Titania's Song removes the abilities, anything copy effect, control changing effect, text changing effect, type changing effect, or color changing effect will still be applied even though it gets removed. Regardless of if it shows up before or after Titania's Song.
pskinn01 says... #1
Lattice goes first always as its a type changing ability. It happens first in the layer system.
There is no loop, all effects are done in a layer system. Once an effect is done, it cares not that the original object lost that ability later in the layer system. Items in same layer apply by newest time stamp first.
So you would have all permanents as artifacts with power and toughness equal to casting cost. With no abilities.
January 21, 2018 5:58 p.m. Edited.